Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

[brightfame52]

So what does "the fall" mean to you?

The entrance of sin and death into the world Rom 5:12

 

[Lamb]

The entrance of sin and death into the world Rom 5:12

Okay, there you go...death. Because of Adam and Eve, we will have eternal death. That's not God's doing as you're claiming.

 

[brightfame52]

The Vessels of Wrath are the ones God created and omitted their names from the Lambs Book of Life, hence Christ did not in the Everlasting Covenant of Grace never stood as their Surety Heb 7:22, and so never was under any obligation to die for them, and they would be appointed to wrath 1 Thess 5:9, whereas the Vessels of Mercy are those God intimately foreknew, had inscribed their Names in the Lambs book of life, hence Christ did stand as their Surety in the Everlasting Covenant of Grace Heb 7:22, and they not appointed to wrath, but to receive Mercy for all their sins, and Christ as their Surety would die for them. 5

 

[BruceLeiter]

God has reprobated as well as chosen. Taken by itself, reprobation is the decree of God in which He has determined, as sovereignly as in election, that some individuals should not enter eternal glory, but are destined for destruction. Herman Hoeksema

Why do you quote Rev. Hoeksema? Are you Protestant Reformed? I was a Christian Reformed pastor for 27 years. We believe that God allows unbelievers to go to hell without determining it, that is, causing it. One of my seminary professors said that God must have a very good reason for not saving everyone and saving some, but he hasn't revealed it to us in the Bible. What do you say to that idea?

 

[brightfame52]

Okay, there you go...death. Because of Adam and Eve, we will have eternal death. That's not God's doing as you're claiming.

Your reasoning is too faulty, the elect had their death penalty abolished by Jesus Christ Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

The death the elect incurred in Adam has been abolished, they are given the gift of eternal life instead.

The non elect will not receive eternal life, but they will suffer eternal wrath for their unabolished sins, and this was always Gods plan for them.

 

[brightfame52]

@BruceLeiter

Why do you quote Rev. Hoeksema?

Why not ? God gave him some truth. Have you ever quoted someone ? Dont lie please

Are you Protestant Reformed?

No Im not, but I read a lot

I was a Christian Reformed pastor for 27 years. We believe that God allows unbelievers to go to hell without determining it, that is, causing it

Thats unbiblical, God determines each persons eternal destiny, by making them a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath

One of my seminary professors said that God must have a very good reason for not saving everyone and saving some, but he hasn't revealed it to us in the Bible. What do you say to that idea?

He does everything for His own Glory, hows that ? You believe that ?

 

[Lamb]

Your reasoning is too faulty, the elect had their death penalty abolished by Jesus Christ Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

The death the elect incurred in Adam has been abolished, they are given the gift of eternal life instead.

The non elect will not receive eternal life, but they will suffer eternal wrath for their unabolished sins, and this was always Gods plan for them.

All are bound to hell already...it's by grace through faith that we have salvation. You even admitted that the fall meant death.

 

[brightfame52]

All are bound to hell already...it's by grace through faith that we have salvation. You even admitted that the fall meant death.

Christs Death for His elect abolished Death, thats a Gospel Truth you apparently dont understand 2 Tim 1:9-11

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

There isnt any eternal/second death for anyone Christ died for, His Death for them abolished all the death they incurred in Adam Rom 5:12 and in themselves. This is b4 they know anything about it, thats what the Gospel is for, to inform them of the good news.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Your reasoning is too faulty, the elect had their death penalty abolished by Jesus Christ Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

The death the elect incurred in Adam has been abolished, they are given the gift of eternal life instead.

The non elect will not receive eternal life, but they will suffer eternal wrath for their unabolished sins, and this was always Gods plan for them.

I agree, but the question I posed that professor was, in God's eternal plan, why he didn't make all humans his elect. Then, he gave me that answer, with which I agree.

 

[Lamb]

Christs Death for His elect abolished Death, thats a Gospel Truth you apparently dont understand 2 Tim 1:9-11

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

There isnt any eternal/second death for anyone Christ died for, His Death for them abolished all the death they incurred in Adam Rom 5:12 and in themselves. This is b4 they know anything about it, thats what the Gospel is for, to inform them of the good news.

Christ said to go out to all the nations to preach the Good News. You see, those who don't have the Good News or those who Reject the Good News are still hell bound...you know, stuck in death.

 

[brightfame52]

I agree, but the question I posed that professor was, in God's eternal plan, why he didn't make all humans his elect. Then, he gave me that answer, with which I agree.

Thats Gods business why,

 

[brightfame52]

Christ said to go out to all the nations to preach the Good News. You see, those who don't have the Good News or those who Reject the Good News are still hell bound...you know, stuck in death.

Of course He said go preach, why not go preach ?

 

[Lamb]

Of course He said go preach, why not go preach ?

He also said to preach to "all nations". Since He died for All.

 

[brightfame52]

He also said to preach to "all nations". Since He died for All.

Of course, why shouldn't the Gospel be preached to all nations ? His chosen sheep are among all nations, thats what the Abrahamic covenant promised Gen 12:1-3

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Scripture preached the Gospel to Abraham Gal 3:8-9

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

So in light of this Jesus said Matt 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Lk 24:46-47

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

But He didnt die for all, but all the seed of Abraham, an elect people within all nations of the earth

 

[Lamb]

Of course, why shouldn't the Gospel be preached to all nations ? His chosen sheep are among all nations, thats what the Abrahamic covenant promised Gen 12:1-3

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Scripture preached the Gospel to Abraham Gal 3:8-9

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

So in light of this Jesus said Matt 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Lk 24:46-47

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

But He didnt die for all, but all the seed of Abraham, an elect people within all nations of the earth

Why would Jesus tell the disciples to tell all nations if it wasn't FOR all nations?

 

[brightfame52]

Why would Jesus tell the disciples to tell all nations if it wasn't FOR all nations?

The Gospel ! And it is for all nations, Didnt I tell you Gods elect are found within the Nations, the Blessing of Abraham is in regard to all nations. What does this say ? Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[fuddy]

Brightflame is saying all nations, yes... but not all of the people from those nations.

So maybe, what do you surmise, brightflame - somewhere between 1% - 10% from all humanity would be among those God has elected to salvation? Ergo, 90% - 99% are doomed to damnation and hell, without any possible recourse, because God has excluded them from the extraordinary blessing awarded to, and only to, the elect?

 

[Lamb]

Brightflame is saying all nations, yes... but not all of the people from those nations.

So maybe, what do you surmise, brightflame - somewhere between 1% - 10% from all humanity would be among those God has elected to salvation? Ergo, 90% - 99% are doomed to damnation and hell, without any possible recourse, because God has excluded them from the extraordinary blessing awarded to, and only to, the elect?

Brightfame keeps trying to insist that when God says "all" that He doesn't mean it.

 

[brightfame52]

In the purpose of God, where election is, so also is reprobation. There can be no “election” if all are chosen. If we ever sing the song of the Lamb of God, we shall sing of both election to grace and reprobation to damnation. That song states: “for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev. 5:9 ). To redeem us and not them is electing love; to redeem out of a people clearly indicates that some are not redeemed by scp

And those of course not redeemed, were the reprobate God had purposed/appointed to wrath, and of course if they weren't redeemed, Christ could not have died for them, since His Death redeems from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13-14

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 6

 

[fuddy]

Calvin says God has both a revealed Will, and a "secret" Will.

His revealed Will is that everyone, everywhere, even the wicked, would come to repentance and be saved - His secret Will however, is that only a small percentage of those people will ever be able to come to repentance, because God Himself will not enable the unelected to believe the gospel, but will instead keep them blinded to it.

To me that indicates that the God of Calvin is a God who deceives his own creatures by seemingly offering hope to all, when in reality that hope is accessible to only a few, but, what do I know... indeed, what does ANYONE know, including Calvin and brightflame and anyone else.

I choose to trust in a much bigger, much grander God, whose character is defined by honesty, integrity, and everlasting love, a God of hope, who would never deceive anyone, especially about the hope of salvation.

God hates a liar. Does God then hate Himself? Nah, don't think so.