Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

[Lamb]

Which verse says Christ did not die for the unbelievers?

 

[BruceLeiter]

Again Christs Death saves them He died for from sin, rejection of Him, all disobedience and offences. No its not a mystery why He doesn't save everyone, the Father only gave Him some to save and give eternal life Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Its just His Sovereign will !

Yeah, but I can't understand why he chose some and not many people, but I lay it at his feet, because he hasn't revealed the reason. I'm not better than anyone else.

 

[brightfame52]

@BruceLeiter

Yeah, but I can't understand why he chose some and not many people

Dont worry your brain about it,Jesus said of some things Matt 11:25-26

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

I'm not better than anyone else.

Thats correct, all of us men are sinners hating God by nature.

 

[BruceLeiter]

@BruceLeiter



Dont worry your brain about it,Jesus said of some things Matt 11:25-26

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.



Thats correct, all of us men are sinners hating God by nature.

You're right, brightfame52. The amazing thing to me is that he has begun his work in me to give me progress in changing my evil nature into one like him! That process started when I was 16 and is still going on at my age of 82!

 

[The Jason]

He died for all, but all don't want him.

 

[brightfame52]

He died for all, but all don't want him.

Error !

 

[brightfame52]

@BruceLeiter

You're right, brightfame52. The amazing thing to me is that he has begun his work in me to give me progress in changing my evil nature into one like him!

Well I dont believe God changes the evil nature we have by nature, but gives one a new nature via New Birth, a New Man Eph 4:24

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And that new nature and old nature constantly war against one another within the redeemed Gal 5:16-17

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[BruceLeiter]

@BruceLeiter



Well I dont believe God changes the evil nature we have by nature, but gives one a new nature via New Birth, a New Man Eph 4:24

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And that new nature and old nature constantly war against one another within the redeemed Gal 5:16-17

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Yes, your passage is imperative, that is, a command that we cooperate with the Holy Spirit in the process of replacing the old-nature qualities with new-nature ones. We can only do that with the power of Jesus' death and resurrection, primarily through prayer. It is a lifelong process. I know, I'm still at it at the age of 82 after having been saved when I was 16!

 

[brightfame52]

@BruceLeiter

Yes, your passage is imperative, that is, a command that we cooperate with the Holy Spirit in the process of replacing the old-nature

I think you are sadly mistaken

 

[BruceLeiter]

@BruceLeiter



I think you are sadly mistaken

Specifically, what am I "sadly mistaken" about? I think that you don't understand the "already"'-"not-yet" aspects of the gospel. In Ephesians 1-3, Colossians 1-2, Hebrews 1-11, Romans 1-11, and other letters, the writers describe what God has "already" made happen in principle for us. But in Ephesians 4-6, Colossians 3-4, Hebrews 12-16, Romans 12-16, and other letters, the writers urge us with many commands to put into practice God's will in our lives with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. The same pattern is found in Ephesians 2:8-10:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Tell me that you follow 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 perfectly. We are all God's workmanship in progress, though in principle, from God's viewpoint as our Judge, we are perfect.

 

[BruceLeiter]

To say that God loved and Christ died for them who will perish is a direct attack on the Saving Efficacy of the Death of Christ, who saves His People from their sins, such sins as " refusing to acknowledge their Creator"

So, are you saying in essence that everyone without exception will be saved by Christ's death, even those who refuse to acknowledge him? If so, then, you're denying the many passages that show clearly that many people will have to experience God's justice over their continued rebellion against God.

Let's face it, folks, God has his right plan for everything and every event. At the same time, humans are fully responsible for their whole lives. The mystery is how those two biblical truths work together, as Joseph said to his brother's, who had sold him into Egyptian slavery,
“Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today" (Genesis 50:19-20). God's plans did not cause the brothers' hatred of Joseph, for which they alone were responsible, but allowed it for the purpose of enabling Joseph to save many people and his family during the famine.

 

[brightfame52]

Specifically, what am I "sadly mistaken" about? I think that you don't understand the "already"'-"not-yet" aspects of the gospel. In Ephesians 1-3, Colossians 1-2, Hebrews 1-11, Romans 1-11, and other letters, the writers describe what God has "already" made happen in principle for us. But in Ephesians 4-6, Colossians 3-4, Hebrews 12-16, Romans 12-16, and other letters, the writers urge us with many commands to put into practice God's will in our lives with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. The same pattern is found in Ephesians 2:8-10:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Tell me that you follow 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 perfectly. We are all God's workmanship in progress, though in principle, from God's viewpoint as our Judge, we are perfect.

You cant tell someone about Eph 2:8 and neglect election Eph 1:4 thats where Grace began

 

[brightfame52]

@BruceLeiter

So, are you saying in essence that everyone without exception will be saved by Christ's death,

How in the world did you come up with that ? As much as I post about limited atonement, election and so forth! You dont pay attention to detail,i cant deal with that. Perhaps you need to study the things I have posted in the past to get get a better understanding of what I believe.

 

[brightfame52]

Prevents them from perishing !

All those Christ died for, in the place of or in behalf of, and for their benefit, His Death kept them from perishing for their own sins ! This is clearly seen in what the High Priest uttered here by the inspiration of God Jn 11:50-51

Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

Its clearly indicated in Vs 50 that the outcome and purpose of the one man dying for that nation prevents the one's of that nation from perishing !

The word perish in Vs 50 is the greek word apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly

Its the same word used in Jn 3:16

should not perish, but have

Also the word expedient in Vs 50 is the greek word sumphero: I collect, am profitable to

I bring together, collect; I am profitable to.

properly, combine in a way that brings a profit (gain), especially by a "concurrence of circumstances" that results in benefit or advancement (M. Vincent).

This means that Christ's Death would bring together, collect all into one the Children of God or the Sheep of God as is stated in Vs 52

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

That was the benefit of His Death , the profit of His Death, it was conducive in preventing all the Children of God or Sheep of God from Perishing in their sins !

If this passage is understood spiritually it shows that Christ's Death in and of itself saves from perishing those He died in behalf of !

 

[BruceLeiter]

You cant tell someone about Eph 2:8 and neglect election Eph 1:4 thats where Grace began

It's not neglecting to tell them about Ephesians 1:4, but it's more pastoral to tell them about it later when they are maturing in the faith, so that they can take it as a comfort instead of as a threat or a confusing doctrine.

 

[brightfame52]

It's not neglecting to tell them about Ephesians 1:4, but it's more pastoral to tell them about it later when they are maturing in the faith, so that they can take it as a comfort instead of as a threat or a confusing doctrine.

You cant tell someone about Eph 2:8 and neglect election Eph 1:4 thats where Grace began. Thats why a person must be saved, born of the Spirit to understand the things of God, its not for the natural man 1 Cor 2:12-14

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Your reasoning is natural man reasoning, not spiritual

 

[brightfame52]

That we may bear fruit unto God !

Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Another accomplishment of the Death of Christ in the Purpose of God, is that it will cause all for whom He died and was raised from the dead for, to bring forth fruit unto God. That fruit being both faith and repentance, repentance toward God and Faith in Jesus Christ Acts 20:21

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Both of these are but fruits of Christ's Death and Resurrection 1 Pet 1:3 !

Remember when Jesus said this Jn 12:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Well that is the fruit unto God Paul means here in Rom 7:4, which fruit consisteth of many men and women for whom Christ died, manifest both Faith and Repentance.


John the Baptist said to the Pharisee, questioning them about why they came to His Baptism of Repentance, but first they must bring forth fruit unto Repentance Matt 3:7-8

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducee's come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

This fruit would manifest itself in confession of sin Matt 3:6

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

However the Pharisees and Sadducee's that John directed his words to did not consider themselves sinners as other men much like the Pharisee here Lk 18:11-12

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

You see the Pharisee did not consider those things he did works of darkness or sinful deeds of the flesh, but in reality thats what they were Jn 3:19

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Their religious deeds were nothing but dead works that needed to be repented of Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? See also Isa 64:6.

Now this is how Christ Glorifies His Father, by those He died for bringing forth fruit Jn 15:8

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

And this is the end and accomplishment of the Death of Christ or the Body of Christ Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 11

 

[BruceLeiter]

You cant tell someone about Eph 2:8 and neglect election Eph 1:4 thats where Grace began. Thats why a person must be saved, born of the Spirit to understand the things of God, its not for the natural man 1 Cor 2:12-14

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Your reasoning is natural man reasoning, not spiritual

No, it is spiritual reasoning to live out of love for our neighbor, which is the second great commandment after the first one (Love God above all with your whole being), according to Jesus. Love for the unsaved means pastorally to separate the two aspects of the truth to give election to them later when they can handle it better as maturing believers.

 

[brightfame52]

@BruceLeiter

No, it is spiritual reasoning

No its natural mans reasoning, with no dependance on the Spirit of Truth.

Jesus once told a heathen women that He came specifically for the lost sheep of Israel [Gods elect] yet it didnt discourage her at all in her pursuit of mercy Matt 15:21-25

21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Thats shows your flawed natural thinking

 

[brightfame52]

No, it is spiritual reasoning to live out of love for our neighbor, which is the second great commandment after the first one (Love God above all with your whole being), according to Jesus. Love for the unsaved means pastorally to separate the two aspects of the truth to give election to them later when they can handle it better as maturing believers.

Its the very reason for such flawed thinking as yours, that Faith must be given of God to believe the Truth, even the Faith of Gods Elect Titus 1:2

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after

This Faith acknowledges Election in the Gospel Truth