Once Saved, Always Saved

Lees

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Again, to all who believe you can lose eternal life, eternal salvation, see post # (35).

And, answer the questions at the bottom.

Why didn't the Holy Spirit do a better job of sealing us until the day of Redemption?

Can a believer overpower the Holy Spirit and break the seal?

Lees
 

Lamb

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Again, to all who believe you can lose eternal life, eternal salvation, see post # (35).

And, answer the questions at the bottom.

Why didn't the Holy Spirit do a better job of sealing us until the day of Redemption?

Can a believer overpower the Holy Spirit and break the seal?

Lees

Did you watch the video?
 

Odë:hgöd

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~
When folks insist that one's protection from the wrath of God via the cross can be
lost, they are actually casting a vote of no-confidence in Jesus' reliability as a
shepherd of the sheep that the Father entrusted to His son's care. In other words:
in their minds Christ is an okay shepherd but not really all that competent.


FAQ: Why can't the sheep of their own free will walk out on Jesus?

REPLY: Because the Father's free will trumps the sheep's free will.

John 6:39 . . This is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that
he has given me.

One of Christ's characteristics, in which I have complete confidence, is that he is
conscientious about keeping his Father satisfied; thus he stated:

"The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do
what is pleasing to Him." (John 8:29)

Were Christ to lose even one of the sheep the Father entrusted to his care, then it
would be dishonest of him to claim to "always" please Him. Christ might be able to
claim pleasing the one who sent him a high percentage of the time, but certainly
not 100% and God would have to revise His evaluation of Jesus, i.e. knock it down
from "well pleased" to only "pleased"

Matt 12:18 . . Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; My beloved, in whom My
soul is well pleased (cf. Matt 17:5)


FAQ: Jesus is just one man; how is he supposed to keep the sheep safe and secure
all over the globe?


REPLY: I should think Jesus' miracles adequately demonstrate that he has all the
powers and abilities of the supreme being at his disposal to keep the sheep right
where he wants them. Also; when it comes time for round-up, he won't need a GPS
tag to find them because the Spirit signals their location wherever they go.

Eph 1:13-14 . . When you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by
giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. The Spirit is God's
guarantee that He will give us everything He promised; and that He has purchased
us to be His own people.

Eph 4:30 . . Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for
the day of redemption.
_
 

Josiah

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Again, to all who believe you can lose eternal life, eternal salvation, see post # (35).

Again, @Lees you simply are noting SOME of the Scriptures on this issue while totally IGNORING others.

And again showing your (very odd, very absurd) rubric that questions are answers. Questions substantiate NOTHING.


.
 

Josiah

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Some feel a need to note SOME Scriptures on this but ignore others; just pick which ones you believe and which you don't. Perhaps note the first "set" and ignore the second, or note the second and ignore the first. In other words, to accept SOME of what God so clearly states while rejecting SOME (or more piously, insisted God worded these very poorly and MEANT something totally differently).



Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."

All this is true.


Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."

All this is true.


Perhaps the best approach is not to subject one "set" to the other (one "set" is right, the other is wrong) but to see all as true. The issue is not how to reject what God says but how to apply them. Perhaps the issue is CONTEXT (here, Law or Gospel) rather than choosing which to accept and which to ignore.


A modern "take" on OSAS is to change it to IF the person has REAL, GENUINE, AUTHENTIC faith, they'll have it at the microsecond of death even if God has to re-give it." Two problems: Scripture never remotely teaches that. And it simply changes the point of security from the OBJECT of faith (Christ) to the unknowable QUALITY of our faith (as if God gives both real and unreal faith).


The historic (and IMO biblical) teaching here is that where there is faith in the SAVIOR, there is salvation. Where faith in Christ is absent, so is salvation. Pastorally, there has always been "room" for doubts and temporary lapses but the principle remains: The SAVIOR is Christ, and He is certain! So when we are "in Him", we are secure and saved. When we are not, we aren't. That seems to reflect what Scripture says. Pastorally, the one who fears that his life and doubts makes him unsaved, there is the Gospel. For the one who holds he can think, say and do whatever and God has to save him he needs the Law.




Blessings!


Josiah


.




.
 
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Lees

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Again, @Lees you simply are noting SOME of the Scriptures on this issue while totally IGNORING others.

And again showing your (very odd, very absurd) rubric that questions are answers. Questions substantiate NOTHING.

Again, see post # (35) concerning (Eph. 4:30)

Answer these questions. Why didn't the Holy Spirit do a better job of sealing us? Can the believer overpower the Holy Spirit and break the seal?

Your refusal, and others refusal, to answer the questions substantiates everything. You have no answer because the answer is against you, as usual.

Lees
 

Lamb

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Again, see post # (35) concerning (Eph. 4:30)

Answer these questions. Why didn't the Holy Spirit do a better job of sealing us? Can the believer overpower the Holy Spirit and break the seal?

Your refusal, and others refusal, to answer the questions substantiates everything. You have no answer because the answer is against you, as usual.

Lees

You might want to stop and think about this since you're asking the Why... Why didn't God do a better job of preventing Adam and Eve from turning against Him when they sinned?
 

Lees

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You might want to stop and think about this since you're asking the Why... Why didn't God do a better job of preventing Adam and Eve from turning against Him when they sinned?

I have thought about it...a lot. I believe that was addressed in the thread "Does God Control". Yet I don't see how that pertains to the 'sealing' of the believer by the Holy Spirit. (Eph. 4:30) We are sealed unto the 'day of redemption'.

When is the 'day of redemption'? When we stand before the Lord complete in our salvation, body, soul, and spirit. At present, only our spirit has been born-again. And the Holy Spirit in us is the earnest of our inheritance that that day of redemption will happen. (Eph. 1:14)

And when did this 'sealing' take place? (Eph. 1:13) "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

Lees
 

Tulipbee

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Does the Bible teach “Once Saved, Always Saved”?
The concept of "Once Saved, Always Saved" is closely tied to the theological doctrines of Calvinism and contrasts with certain aspects of Arminianism. In Calvinism, this belief is often associated with the "Perseverance of the Saints," which is one of the five points of TULIP (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints).

Calvinists who adhere to the Perseverance of the Saints assert that those who are truly saved will persevere in their faith until the end and cannot lose their salvation. This perspective is rooted in the belief that God's sovereign grace ensures the eternal security of the elect.

On the other hand, Arminianism, which emphasizes human free will and conditional election, generally rejects the notion of "Once Saved, Always Saved." Arminians contend that believers can choose to reject their salvation through a deliberate turning away from faith, thus forfeiting their salvation.

The debate between these theological perspectives revolves around the understanding of God's sovereignty, human free will, and the nature of salvation. Calvinists emphasize God's predestining work and the security of the elect, while Arminians stress the role of human choice and the possibility of falling away from salvation.

Ultimately, the question of whether the Bible teaches "Once Saved, Always Saved" is a matter of interpretation, and different Christian traditions may hold varying views based on their theological frameworks.
 

Josiah

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You might want to stop and think about this since you're asking the Why... Why didn't God do a better job of preventing Adam and Eve from turning against Him when they sinned?


Our friend is employing a silly, desperate, disallowed (in debate) ploy: Asking a question in lieu of supplying an answer. Worse, he actually seems to think that questions ARE answers, that they substantiate something (besides the ability to form a question).


.
 

Albion

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The concept of "Once Saved, Always Saved" is closely tied to the theological doctrines of Calvinism and contrasts with certain aspects of Arminianism. In Calvinism, this belief is often associated with the "Perseverance of the Saints," which is one of the five points of TULIP (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints).

Calvinists who adhere to the Perseverance of the Saints assert that those who are truly saved will persevere in their faith until the end and cannot lose their salvation. This perspective is rooted in the belief that God's sovereign grace ensures the eternal security of the elect.

On the other hand, Arminianism, which emphasizes human free will and conditional election, generally rejects the notion of "Once Saved, Always Saved." Arminians contend that believers can choose to reject their salvation through a deliberate turning away from faith, thus forfeiting their salvation.

The debate between these theological perspectives revolves around the understanding of God's sovereignty, human free will, and the nature of salvation. Calvinists emphasize God's predestining work and the security of the elect, while Arminians stress the role of human choice and the possibility of falling away from salvation.

Ultimately, the question of whether the Bible teaches "Once Saved, Always Saved" is a matter of interpretation, and different Christian traditions may hold varying views based on their theological frameworks.
Sooooo...

Does the Bible teach OSAS or not, Tulipbee?

:rolleyes:
 

Tulipbee

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Sooooo...

Does the Bible teach OSAS or not, Tulipbee?

:rolleyes:
To explore the question of whether the Bible teaches "Once Saved, Always Saved" (OSAS) from a Calvinistic perspective, we can turn to John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion." Calvin addresses the topic of perseverance and the assurance of salvation in Book III, Chapter 24, titled "Assurance of Grace and Salvation."

In this section, Calvin discusses the certainty and security of salvation for the elect. He emphasizes the role of the Holy Spirit in confirming the faith of believers and argues that the assurance of grace and salvation is grounded in the testimony of the Spirit within the hearts of God's children.

I'll provide a quote from Calvin's "Institutes" that touches on this theme:

"By the assurance of grace, I understand a faith by which we both understand that the promises of the Lord are in reality fulfilled to us, and embrace their present fulfillment."

Calvin asserts that genuine faith includes an assurance that the promises of God are truly fulfilled for the believers. While the term "Once Saved, Always Saved" may not be explicitly mentioned, Calvin's writings indicate a strong emphasis on the security and perseverance of the saints, aligning with the core tenets of the Calvinistic doctrine.
 

Odë:hgöd

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.
This is a bounce from post No.44 wherein Jesus is depicted as the shepherd
of a flock of sheep given him by his Father per John 6:37 & John 10:27-29.


Noah's ark had but one entrance which could be opened only from the outside (Gen
7:16) And I think it safe to assume that after God closed the door, He caulked
it with pitch to make it watertight per Gen 6:14

So then: Noah's watercraft was a floating prison from which neither he nor his
family could escape without assistance. The window? No; its dimensions were such
that birds could get out but Noah couldn't.

The Bible says God "shut" him in (Gen 7:16) The Hebrew word basically refers to
the kind of imprisonment that animal husbandry imposes upon livestock when
they're herded into pens and/or corrals and gates closed behind them. Compare Ex
14:3 where that word indicates Pharaoh was convinced Moses' people were boxed in
and wouldn't get very far before he caught up with them.

Jesus depicts himself as the gate to the sheepfold of the sheep given him by
his Father (John 10:7) in other words: should any of Jesus' sheep get it in their silly
little heads to run away, they'll need to get past him to do it because there is no
other way either in or out but the one gate; which isn't a mechanical structure.
I'm told shepherds back then cowboy camped right there: blocking traffic with
their body, i.e. the really good shepherds risked their own lives to keep the
sheep right where they were supposed to be instead of letting them wander off
to be taken by predators or stolen by rustlers.

Just as imprisonment in the ark was for Noah's safety, so imprisonment in Jesus'
sheepfold is for his sheep's safety. And just as God's free will trumped Noah's free
will, so the shepherd's free will trumps the sheep's free will. It has to be that way
for their own good.

John 10:9 . . I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

* The Greek word for "saved" basically means protected.

"will be protected" is a very bold statement. It doesn't say Jesus' sheep have a
better chance of survival than ordinary sheep. It's saying Jesus is confident his own
will all survive, i.e. the entire flock: none will be lost.


FAQ: How might one join Jesus?

REPLY: Admittance to Jesus' sheepfold is available upon request (John 6:37) The
only prerequisite is that candidates be sheep, as no other species is given
consideration. (Isa 53:6)
_
 
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Albion

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The debate between these theological perspectives revolves around the understanding of God's sovereignty, human free will, and the nature of salvation. Calvinists emphasize God's predestining work and the security of the elect, while Arminians stress the role of human choice and the possibility of falling away from salvation.

Ultimately, the question of whether the Bible teaches "Once Saved, Always Saved" is a matter of interpretation, and different Christian traditions may hold varying views based on their theological frameworks.

All that we've done, then, is verify that you agree with Calvin, not that he's correct about the matter that's often termed OSAS.
 

Tulipbee

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All that we've done, then, is verify that you agree with Calvin, not that he's correct about the matter that's often termed OSAS.
Ah, Albion, let's waltz through the theological ballroom, where Calvin's writings and the Bible are the dance partners in this divine soiree. Now, Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, might tap his foot and say, "Ah, Albion, the question of 'Once Saved, Always Saved' is like a theological tango – a dance of divine security."
Quoting Calvin's dance moves from the Institutes: "By perseverance, the saints press on in this race; and hence they are said to be continued or preserved to the end."
Picture it, Albion – saints persevering in the divine dance, twirling through the twists and turns of predestination and God's sovereign grip.
Now, let's add a Calvinist shimmy with a Bible quote, Romans 8:38-39 (ESV): "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
It's like a theological moonwalk – once you're in the embrace of God's love, there's no separation, no slipping on the divine dance floor.
But Albion, the dance of interpretation continues. Calvinists might cha-cha with the idea that God's sovereignty ensures the saints' persistence, while others may foxtrot with the nuances of free will.
Shall we keep dancing through the Calvinistic ballroom, Albion, unraveling the divine choreography with Calvin's pen as our guide? 💃🕺
 

Albion

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Ah, Albion, let's waltz through the theological ballroom, where Calvin's writings and the Bible are the dance partners in this divine soiree.
Oh, let's not. I think that what I was inquiring about has been established now.
 

Josiah

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The concept of "Once Saved, Always Saved" is closely tied to the theological doctrines of Calvinism and contrasts with certain aspects of Arminianism. In Calvinism, this belief is often associated with the "Perseverance of the Saints," which is one of the five points of TULIP (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints).

Calvinists who adhere to the Perseverance of the Saints assert that those who are truly saved will persevere in their faith until the end and cannot lose their salvation. This perspective is rooted in the belief that God's sovereign grace ensures the eternal security of the elect.

On the other hand, Arminianism, which emphasizes human free will and conditional election, generally rejects the notion of "Once Saved, Always Saved." Arminians contend that believers can choose to reject their salvation through a deliberate turning away from faith, thus forfeiting their salvation.

The debate between these theological perspectives revolves around the understanding of God's sovereignty, human free will, and the nature of salvation. Calvinists emphasize God's predestining work and the security of the elect, while Arminians stress the role of human choice and the possibility of falling away from salvation.

Ultimately, the question of whether the Bible teaches "Once Saved, Always Saved" is a matter of interpretation, and different Christian traditions may hold varying views based on their theological frameworks.

With all due respect.....

It seems to ME that TULIP is all an interconnected, inter-dependent "logical construct" (to quote my very Reformed in laws - members of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church). One part simply assumes the absolute correctness of all the others, and "builds" on that in a logical way. With THAT understanding, yeah, OSAS is virtually a given.

Of course, it seems to most that most of TULIP is not biblical or historic/traditional/orthodox. And while I'd admit there's a bit of "logical construct" in all theological schools, I hold that the norma normans is SCRIPTURE (and under that, Tradition) not logic or constructs. I'm "good" with one part of TULIP and partly okay with some others.

I don't fully agree with you that it 's a matter of "interpretation." It seems to ME, for OSAS, it's simply a matter of submitting some Scriptures to others, ignoring some in light of accepting others.... simply because SOME Scriptures "fit" with TULIP and some don't. I stand (passionately) with conservative Reformed in their monergism and repudiation of Arminianism/synergism/pelagianism .... but not in this "logical construct" of TULIP. But then, I'm Lutheran LOL.


Blessing!


- Josiah


.
 

Tulipbee

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Oh, let's not. I think that what I was inquiring about has been established now.
Ah, Albion, my theological dance partner, it's like we were just about to break into the divine cha-cha of Calvinistic wisdom, and then you pulled the theological emergency brake!

I get it, sometimes the theological dance floor gets a bit too crowded. It's like trying to waltz through a sea of biblical inquiries, and suddenly, it's like, "Alright, folks, the dance is over!"

But hey, no hard feelings. If you ever want to tango through Calvin's writings or pirouette through the mysteries of divine doctrines, the theological ballroom is always open for a cha-cha comeback. Until then, keep on grooving through the rhythms of theological inquiry! 💃🕺🎶
 

Tulipbee

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With all due respect.....

It seems to ME that TULIP is all an interconnected, inter-dependent "logical construct" (to quote my very Reformed in laws - members of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church). One part simply assumes the absolute correctness of all the others, and "builds" on that in a logical way. With THAT understanding, yeah, OSAS is virtually a given.

Of course, it seems to most that most of TULIP is not biblical or historic/traditional/orthodox. And while I'd admit there's a bit of "logical construct" in all theological schools, I hold that the norma normans is SCRIPTURE (and under that, Tradition) not logic or constructs. I'm "good" with one part of TULIP and partly okay with some others.

I don't fully agree with you that it 's a matter of "interpretation." It seems to ME, for OSAS, it's simply a matter of submitting some Scriptures to others, ignoring some in light of accepting others.... simply because SOME Scriptures "fit" with TULIP and some don't. I stand (passionately) with conservative Reformed in their monergism and repudiation of Arminianism/synergism/pelagianism .... but not in this "logical construct" of TULIP. But then, I'm Lutheran LOL.


Blessing!


- Josiah


.
Ah, Josiah, the theologian with a side of Lutheran laughter! It's like you're doing the theological cha-cha with TULIP, and you've got your dancing shoes on – or maybe, your theological lederhosen.
Now, about TULIP being an interconnected logical construct, it's like a theological LEGO set where each piece relies on the others to build the grand Calvinistic castle. And OSAS, well, it's the tower that stands tall, saying, "Once Saved, Always Saved, like it or not!"
But hey, you're not fully agreeing with the "interpretation" dance, and you've got your own moves – submitting Scriptures to others, ignoring some, and embracing the ones that do the polka with TULIP. It's like a Lutheran dance-off, with tradition and Scripture leading the way.
And let's not forget your passionate stand with conservative Reformed in their monergism – a theological tango you've mastered. But when it comes to TULIP's logical construct, you're doing the Lutheran two-step away.
So, Josiah, keep on waltzing through the realms of Lutheranism and TULIP, blessing us with your theological humor along the way! 💃🕺🕊️
 
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