Does God control

[Jazzy]

Does God control everything that happens in my life?

 

[brightfame52]

Does God control everything that happens in my life?

Yes, not in yours only, but everyone without exception.

 

[Josiah]

No.


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[Albion]

No. Not if you mean by "control" that he scripts it.

 

[bbas 64]

You might find this helpful....

Does God Control All Things All the Time?

We know that God has the ability to control everything, but does he always choose to exercise his full sovereignty?

www.desiringgod.org

 

[brightfame52]

No. Not if you mean by "control" that he scripts it.

I disagree, in that He purposed all things, else they could not have existed in the first place, and all things exist for His Purpose, Pleasure Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[Josiah]

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

This verse obviously does not state that God CAUSES and desires all things that happen. For example, I find it absurd to argue that God caused and desired Adam to fall and sin.... one can argue that He choose not to prevent it but that's not the same as causing and desiring it.



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[Lees]

This verse obviously does not state that God CAUSES and desires all things that happen. For example, I find it absurd to argue that God caused and desired Adam to fall and sin.... one can argue that He choose not to prevent it but that's not the same as causing and desiring it.



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This answer does not satisfy. One has to consider the attributes of God.

Did God know Adam would sin before He created Him? Yet, He created him.

Did God know Adam would eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Yet He placed the Tree in the Garden.

That Adam chose a way that was not in following with God's way, doesn't mean the Lord didn't intend for him to fall.

If God had the power to create another way....if God had the power to stop Adam from falling, but didn't....how is that not the same as causing and desiring it?

God doesn't allow anything He doesn't want to happen.

Jesus told Peter that "...Satan hath desired to have you, that he my sift you as wheat." (Luke 22:31) And what did Jesus say to Peter? "But I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not...." (Luke 22:32)

If you're Peter, that's not the response you want to hear. In other words, Peter was given over to Satan.

The believer can know that 'nothing' comes into our lives but what it hasn't gone through Jesus Christ first. Nothing! He has authority to allow it or not. And either way, He is in control over it.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

God doesn't allow anything He doesn't want to happen.

Thus your position is that God WANTED the Fall to happen.

I think it's absurd on the face of it. It's an LDS fundamental belief but it's to be rejected.


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[Lees]

Thus your position is that God WANTED the Fall to happen.

I think it's absurd on the face of it. It's an LDS fundamental belief but it's to be rejected.


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What God wanted was unobtainable without the fall.

The fall was just as necessary as the Cross. A perfect Adam and Eve in a perfect Garden was not the end of what God wanted. It was a means to the end. (John 12:23-24)

I am not LDS and do not say what I do to present any of their doctrine. I said what I said based upon what Scripture says.

You think it absurd, yet ignored most of post # (8).

We are told Jesus was slain, not just in 0-1 A.D, but from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8). The only conclusion one can come to is that all was part of the plan of God. Fall included.

Think of the absurdity of what you are saying. You present Satan as getting one over on God in the Garden. Like God ringing His hands and saying, "Oh my gosh, what has happened to my beautiful creation!" Sounds absurd...I know. Because it is.

When God called out to Adam, "Where art thou?", do you think He didn't know where Adam was? (Gen. 3:9)

So, don't try and blame your 'rejection' due to LDS doctrine. Your rejection is based upon all that I said in post # (8), which is Scriptural.

This is just another one of those areas where believers won't believe the Scripture because God just couldn't be like that. Much like with the story of Job. Who destroyed Job's family and his possessions? God or Satan?

Lees

 

[bbas 64]

This verse obviously does not state that God CAUSES and desires all things that happen. For example, I find it absurd to argue that God caused and desired Adam to fall and sin.... one can argue that He choose not to prevent it but that's not the same as causing and desiring it.



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Good day, Josiah

I guess that depends on your understanding of Primary and Secondary Causality.

Would you agree that Adam has both the ability to sin and not to sin?

Did God create Adam with those abilities?

Did God Know before the creation the Adam would Sin?

Could God have stopped Adam from sinning?

Why didn't he?

What are you thoughts about this, does God have to deal with the cards dealt Him by Adam?




In Him,

Bill

 

[Josiah]

Good day, Josiah

Would you agree that Adam has both the ability to sin and not to sin?

@bbas 64


Yes

Did God create Adam with those abilities?

Yes

Did God Know before the creation the Adam would Sin?

Yes.

Could God have stopped Adam from sinning?

Yes.

Why didn't he?

We don't know.*

But what is unacceptable is that God WANTED man to fall into sin, God caused it, God desired it. That would make God the author of sin and the reason for the Fall, God the cause of unholiness, God wanting unholiness. It would mean God (who calls on us to be holy) actually wants and causes us to be evil. That He calls on us to trust and obey Him but actually wants and causes us to rebel and distrust.


Blessings, my friend! GOOD to have you here!


- Josiah


* As you know, Bill, Lutherans are willing to embrace mystery and tensions.. slow to dogmatize theories and opinions... slow to go against solid Tradition. "I don't know" is often seen as a wise answer. And "answers" that clearly contradict Scripture must be wrong - no matter how "logical" it may be. Funny, those Lutherans.




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[Josiah]

One has to consider the attributes of God.

Including holiness. God does not sin. God does not cause sin. God does not desire sin.

That Adam chose a way that was not in following with God's way, doesn't mean the Lord didn't intend for him to fall.

It also doesn't mean God intended, desired, caused him to fall.

God doesn't allow anything He doesn't want to happen.

I disagree. The Bible never says that. Christianity has never held to that.

He has authority to allow it or not. And either way, He is in control over it.

No one debates either of those points.

The disagreement I have with you is that the Holy God - who calls on all to be holy - DESIRES, WANTS, CAUSES sin and evil.



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[Albion]

Good day, Josiah

I guess that depends on your understanding of Primary and Secondary Causality.

Would you agree that Adam has both the ability to sin and not to sin?

Did God create Adam with those abilities?

Did God Know before the creation the Adam would Sin?

Could God have stopped Adam from sinning?

Why didn't he?

What are you thoughts about this, does God have to deal with the cards dealt Him by Adam?

As Josiah was explaining, NONE of that adds up to God having "caused" the outcome.

That said, if we want to return to discussing his willingness to allow free will to men or what the word "control" is supposed to mean in this debate, then that's fine. But "caused?" No.

 

[bbas 64]

@bbas 64


Yes



Yes




Yes.




Yes.




We don't know.*

But what is unacceptable is that God WANTED man to fall into sin, God caused it, God desired it. That would make God the author of sin and the reason for the Fall, God the cause of unholiness, God wanting unholiness. It would mean God (who calls on us to be holy) actually wants and causes us to be evil. That He calls on us to trust and obey Him but actually wants and causes us to rebel and distrust.


Blessings, my friend! GOOD to have you here!


- Josiah


* As you know, Bill, Lutherans are willing to embrace mystery and tensions.. slow to dogmatize theories and opinions... slow to go against solid Tradition. "I don't know" is often seen as a wise answer. And "answers" that clearly contradict Scripture must be wrong - no matter how "logical" it may be. Funny, those Lutherans.




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Thanks Josiah

Yes as you know I studies lots of Luther... and do understand and respect how Lutherans view some things.

I am very content with that.

So when you say you do not know that just means any thing is possible.... Right?


As to author of Sin I would refer you to the WCF.

With all that we agree on.

God allowed that which he did not want because he was/ and is glorified in it.
God allowed (did not stop) sin because it serves his purposes.

We may not know exactly, but there has to be a reason....?

Do you think sin serves a purpose of Gid in any way?
What does he gain from allowing it?

What did you think of the counterfactuals from WLC?

Lots of questions for sure... answers are difficult.

Consider my Friend:

God allows us to struggle with sin our whole lives to convince us until our dying breath of our desperate need of the gospel." -John Newton


In Him,

Bill

 

[Josiah]

Thanks Josiah

Yes as you know I studies lots of Luther... and do understand and respect how Lutherans view some things.

I am very content with that.

So when you say you do not know that just means any thing is possible.... Right?

Not exactly. It is not possible that God is the cause/author/source of evil and sin... that God desires it. For the reasons already stated.

God allowed that which he did not want because he was/ and is glorified in it.
God allowed (did not stop) sin because it serves his purposes.

I'm pretty uncomfortable with that....

We may not know exactly, but there has to be a reason....?

Perhaps. But it is unknown to us.

What we DO know is that God does not desire or cause evil and sin.

Consider my Friend:

God allows us to struggle with sin our whole lives to convince us until our dying breath of our desperate need of the gospel." -John Newton

Perhaps. But again, that does NOT mean that God calls us to be holy yet wants and causes us to be evil and sinful... that God wants us to be more Christ-like yet desires and causes us to be less so.

 

[Lees]

Including holiness. God does not sin. God does not cause sin. God does not desire sin.





It also doesn't mean God intended, desired, caused him to fall.





I disagree. The Bible never says that. Christianity has never held to that.




No one debates either of those points.

The disagreement I have with you is that the Holy God - who calls on all to be holy - DESIRES, WANTS, CAUSES sin and evil.



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God's plan of salvation doesn't take away from His holiness. I never said God sinned. I said the fall of Adam was always the plan of God, just as the Cross is. Sin is always a possibility with the creature, be they human or angelic because both are not God. Both are less than God.

You claim I am saying God causes sin. When God created Adam perfect, He created a being capable of sinning. Why doesn't that mean God causes sin? He definitely created a being capable of sinning. And, knowing they would sin. So my question, why put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden knowing they could and would sin and the human race would fall? Or are you saying God didn't know?

If God knew Adam would sin and fall, and God had the power to stop it but didn't, then it shows that the fall was the plan of God. God would not have allowed it if it was not what He wanted.

I believe Scripture is clear that the Bible declares that.

I have said nothing to take away from God's holiness.

Did God sin when He turned Peter over to Satan, and Peter then disowned Christ?

Please respond to post # (10) also.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

God's plan of salvation doesn't take away from His holiness.

God is holy... and calls on all to be holy as He is holy... but you claim God DESIRES, WANTS, CAUSES us to be evil... then God is not holy and His call to us is absurd: God does NOT want us to be holy (as He states) but to be evil.

I never said God sinned.

If God DESIRED/WANTED/CAUSED man to sin.... yeah, I think that's pretty much God sinning. And He demanding we be holy and then CAUSING us to be the opposite... yeah.... pretty much.

I said the fall of Adam was always the plan of God, just as the Cross is.

Maybe... but ONLY in the sense that God knew we'd fall. But that's entirely unrelated to God DESIRING/WANTING/CAUSING sin, evil, the Fall.

Good does not desire and cause evil.

If God knew Adam would sin and fall, and God had the power to stop it but didn't, then it shows that the fall was the plan of God. God would not have allowed it if it was not what He wanted.

1. This is clearly contrary to Scripture and 2000 years of Christianity.

2. You seem to think this is logical but it's not; you are "connecting dots" that don't belong together. You are equating allowing and desiring... they are not identical, there is not a causative relationship there; it's illogical.

3. God is holy. He cannot desire or act contrary to His nature... not without ceasing to be holy. God CANNOT desire/cause evil.... holiness doesn't cause or desire its opposite. If God CAUSED it, He is responsible for it - and thus God also fell (in fact, God may be the responsible one - not Adam or Eve); God would have fallen into evil before Adam and Eve did by desiring and causing evil/sin. God MAY not stop it from happening but that's entirely unrelated to CAUSING and WILLING it.

I have said nothing to take away from God's holiness.

If God CAUSED and DESIRED evil, He cannot be holy.

 

[Lees]

God is holy... and calls on all to be holy as He is holy... but you claim God DESIRES, WANTS, CAUSES us to be evil... then God is not holy and His call to us is absurd: God does NOT want us to be holy (as He states) but to be evil.






If God DESIRED/WANTED/CAUSED man to sin.... yeah, I think that's pretty much God sinning. And He demanding we be holy and then CAUSING us to be the opposite... yeah.... pretty much.







Maybe... but ONLY in the sense that God knew we'd fall. But that's entirely unrelated to God DESIRING/WANTING/CAUSING sin, evil, the Fall.

Good does not desire and cause evil.






1. This is clearly contrary to Scripture and 2000 years of Christianity.

2. You seem to think this is logical but it's not; you are "connecting dots" that don't belong together. You are equating allowing and desiring... they are not identical, there is not a causative relationship there; it's illogical.

3. God is holy. He cannot desire or act contrary to His nature... not without ceasing to be holy. God CANNOT desire/cause evil.... holiness doesn't cause or desire its opposite. If God CAUSED it, He is responsible for it - and thus God also fell (in fact, God may be the responsible one - not Adam or Eve); God would have fallen into evil before Adam and Eve did by desiring and causing evil/sin. God MAY not stop it from happening but that's entirely unrelated to CAUSING and WILLING it.





If God CAUSED and DESIRED evil, He cannot be holy.

Ok. You acknowledge that God knew man would fall.

Which brings me to my question you ignored in post #(17). "You claim I am saying God causes sin. When God created Adam perfect, He created a being capable of sinning. Why doesn't that mean God causes man to sin? He definitely created a being capable of sinning. And knowing they would sin. So my question, why put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, knowing they could and would sin and the human race would fall? "

You already admit God knew they would fall. If He knew, why put the Tree in the Garden? When God called out to Adam, "Where art thou", do you think He didn't know? (Gen. 3:9) Was He just playing stupid?

What I am saying is not contradictory to Scripture. I am giving you Scripture. I am connecting dots that need to be connected. And God is not acting contrary to His nature. The Fall is part of His plan. It takes nothing away from His holiness.

No, God did not fall or sin. God provided a plan for man, who He knew would sin, in order to obtain His greater goal than a perfect man in the Garden.

Again, if you want to claim that what I am saying takes away from God's holiness, then God creating man, knowing he would sin, takes away from God's holiness. God caused man to exist, knowing he would sin. According to you, God is guilty of sin.

When God turned Peter over to Satan, resulting in Peter's disowning of Christ, was God guilty of sin? Was His holiness infringed upon? (Luke 22:31-32)

Don't forget post # (10) also. Or is that part of your ignore too?

Lees

 

[Josiah]

Ok. You acknowledge that God knew man would fall.

Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination; it's not the same as CAUSING, DESIRING, WANTING, being responsible for it.

So my question, why put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, knowing they could and would sin and the human race would fall? "

1. I don't know the answer. God never said.

2. You can ASK any question you want. But that does not mean that ERGO an "answer" you give yourself to the question you ask yourself is true. You appear to have a crazy notion that questions prove answers. Nope.

What I am saying is not contradictory to Scripture.

Yes it is. God is holy and calls on us to be holy. Holy does not desire or cause evil. Holy does not want evil.

The Bible never states that God desires, wants or causes sin. The reality is the opposite.

I am giving you Scripture.

Nope.

God is not acting contrary to His nature.

Well, you claim that He did/does. Your position is that He is holy but He desires, wants, causes evil and sin. I disagree. So does Scripture and Christianity.

No, God did not fall or sin.

If God willed and caused Adam and Eve to fall, then He sinned. Indeed, if God caused Adam to fall, then God is the one responsible for Adam's sin and the Fall of man: He caused it, He did it, He takes the responsibility.

Again, if you want to claim that what I am saying takes away from God's holiness, then God creating man, knowing he would sin, takes away from God's holiness. God caused man to exist, knowing he would sin. According to you, God is guilty of sin.

IF God caused that sin, then yes.

(Luke 22:31-32)

The verse nowhere states that God caused Peter (or anyone else) to sin and fall. The verse does not state that God DESIRED, WANTED, CAUSED Peter to fall. The verse says NOTHING about what Jesus desired or wanted or caused in this specific situation. You know that.

And see this not out of context but in light of the rest of Scripture. God is good, not evil. God is holy, not sinful. God wants (demands) that we be holy - not evil or sinful. It's absurd to insist, as you do, that God calls us to be holy but causes us to be evil.

Don't forget post # (10) also.

I've not ignored anything. You just keep making the same horrible, illogical, unbiblical, unchristian claim: That God is the Author of evil, sin and the Fall... that God is ultimately to be held responsible for the Fall, that holiness desires and causes evil.



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