Does God control

[Albion]

Ok. You acknowledge that God knew man would fall.

Which brings me to my question you ignored in post #(17). "You claim I am saying God causes sin. When God created Adam perfect, He created a being capable of sinning. Why doesn't that mean God causes man to sin?

Because it doesn't. If he had CAUSED Adam to sin, God would have shared the responsibility and guilt for that sinful act. He merely put it up to Adam to make his own choices.

He definitely created a being capable of sinning.

Yes.

And knowing they would sin.

Yes.

So my question, why put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, knowing they could and would sin and the human race would fall? "

Probably because God wanted a creature who would love him and willingly follow God's wishes. But had God programmed Adam to sin, that would all have been negated.

And as for knowing in advance that Adam would choose to defy God, it was still necessary for God to give Adam the choice. If not, Adam couldn't have demonstrated any love towards his Creator since a robot simply functions in the manner that he's been made to act.

All of God's other creatures--flowers, ants, lions, etc.--simply perform as they are made to perform. Creating mankind was different in that this creature was given free will, which is an attribute that is shared with the Creator himself.

 

[Lees]

Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination; it's not the same as CAUSING, DESIRING, WANTING, being responsible for it.




1. I don't know the answer. God never said.

2. You can ASK any question you want. But that does not mean that ERGO an "answer" you give yourself to the question you ask yourself is true. You appear to have a crazy notion that questions prove answers. Nope.






Yes it is. God is holy and calls on us to be holy. Holy does not desire or cause evil. Holy does not want evil.

The Bible never states that God desires, wants or causes sin. The reality is the opposite.





Nope.





Well, you claim that He did/does. Your position is that He is holy but He desires, wants, causes evil and sin. I disagree. So does Scripture and Christianity.






If God willed and caused Adam and Eve to fall, then He sinned. Indeed, if God caused Adam to fall, then God is the one responsible for Adam's sin and the Fall of man: He caused it, He did it, He takes the responsibility.





IF God caused that sin, then yes.





The verse nowhere states that God caused Peter (or anyone else) to sin and fall. The verse does not state that God DESIRED, WANTED, CAUSED Peter to fall. The verse says NOTHING about what Jesus desired or wanted or caused in this specific situation. You know that.

And see this not out of context but in light of the rest of Scripture. God is good, not evil. God is holy, not sinful. God wants (demands) that we be holy - not evil or sinful. It's absurd to insist, as you do, that God calls us to be holy but causes us to be evil.






I've not ignored anything. You just keep making the same horrible, illogical, unbiblical, unchristian claim: That God is the Author of evil, sin and the Fall... that God is ultimately to be held responsible for the Fall, that holiness desires and causes evil.



.

We are not talking about foreknowledge. We are talking about God's actions in light of His foreknowledge. Which you ignore. God knew man would sin, and fall. Yet God put the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden anyway. Why? Answer is simple. The Fall was part of God's plan. Why did God call out to Adam, "Where art thou" in (Gen. 3:9)? Was God that ignorant?

You don't have an answer because you refuse the answer. What that means is you're incorrect in accusing me of accusing God of sin. And your willful ignorance doesn't make me wrong.

No, again, what I am saying is not contradictory to Scripture. It is contradictory to you. See (2 Chron. 18:20-22) "...the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee." (Is. 45:6-7) "...I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Again I ask you, Who destroyed Job's family and his possessions? God or Satan?

Oh yes, I gave and still do give Scripture. Which you ignore.

If God knew man would sin and fall in the Garden, and God placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden with the prohibition pertaining to it, God created the situation for man to fall, knowing he would fall. That doesn't make God guilty of sin. It makes the Fall part of God's plan. It makes Adam's sin part of God's plan. God's use of Adam's sin doesn't make Him guilty of sin. Your accusation is empty.

You're hiding behind 'your accusation' that I am saying God caused Adam to sin. Yet you admit you have no answer to the question of why God put the Tree of Good and Evil with the prohibition, knowing Adam would sin. The only answer is because the Fall was God's plan. it doesn't make God guilty of sin. It reveals part of God's plan in dealing with sin and accomplishing His goal which was much more then perfect man living in a perfect world with sinless people.

Concerning (Luke 22:31-32), God gave Peter over to Satan. Did God know Peter would deny Jesus Christ? Yes or no? I never said God was evil or sinful. You are saying that, not me.

Don't forget to address post #(10).

Lees

 

[Josiah]

We are talking about God's actions in light of His foreknowledge.

Which was nothing.

God did NOTHING to cause or force or make Adam do anything.

God knew man would sin, and fall. Yet God put the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden anyway. Why?

1. We aren't told. So how do YOU know?

2. I disagree that the Holy God, the All Good God, the God who calls on us to the HOLY, did so to MAKE us sin, to CAUSE us to fall, to FORCE us to be evil.

3. You seem to have this crazy idea that questions provide answers.

Why did God call out to Adam, "Where art thou" in (Gen. 3:9)? Was God that ignorant?

God KNEW what they did.

But you have God saying "Good for you! I'm so pleased that you sinned, that you fell, that you are now evil! I made it all happened!" God didn't say that, did He? And you have Him adding, " I caused it! But YOU are responsible for doing what I made you do."

Again I ask you, Who destroyed Job's family and his possessions? God or Satan?

IF your read the book, it says SATAN did.

That doesn't make God guilty of sin.

For God to WANT Adam to sin, for God to CAUSE Adam to sin, He first had to cease to be holy... He had to become sinful - desiring evil and wrong. And of course, if God CAUSED it, God is the one responsible for it.

The only answer is because the Fall was God's plan.

No, that's YOUR theory. Your horrible, illogical, unbiblical, unchristian theory.... that the Holy God become evil... and thus desired and caused Adam and Eve to sin and rebel and fall.

it doesn't make God guilty of sin.

Since you claim God WANTED and CAUSED them to sin, yes - causing one to sin is sinful.

Concerning (Luke 22:31-32),

It never says God WANTED or CAUSED Peter to sin. You know that. We all do.

If God CAUSES sin, that makes Him sinful, He is the responsible one.

I reject the premise that we have an evil God causing evil.



.

 

[Lees]

Because it doesn't. If he had CAUSED Adam to sin, God would have shared the responsibility and guilt for that sinful act. He merely put it up to Adam to make his own choices.


Yes.

Yes.

Probably because God wanted a creature who would love him and willingly follow God's wishes. But had God programmed Adam to sin, that would all have been negated.

And as for knowing in advance that Adam would choose to defy God, it was still necessary for God to give Adam the choice. If not, Adam couldn't have demonstrated any love towards his Creator since a robot simply functions in the manner that he's been made to act.

All of God's other creatures--flowers, ants, lions, etc.--simply perform as they are made to perform. Creating mankind was different in that this creature was given free will, which is an attribute that is shared with the Creator himself.

You're not following what I was saying to Josiah.

All that I have said is in light of God's knowing Adam would sin before He created him. Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8) Just like the Cross, the Fall was also part of Gods plan for man.

God provided Adam the means to sin with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the prohibition. Knowing he would sin.

The 'choice' didn't change anything as Adam failed, as God knew He would.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

If God had the power to create another way....if God had the power to stop Adam from falling, but didn't....how is that not the same as causing and desiring it?

God doesn't allow anything He doesn't want to happen

God causes sin

That's your heresy.

If you misspoke.... then make that clear. If you desire to return to the biblical, Christian view... we all welcome that.



.

 

[prism]

Does God control everything that happens in my life?

Define 'control'.

 

[Lees]

Which was nothing.

God did NOTHING to cause or force or make Adam do anything.






1. We aren't told. So how do YOU know?

2. I disagree that the Holy God, the All Good God, the God who calls on us to the HOLY, did so to MAKE us sin, to CAUSE us to fall, to FORCE us to be evil.

3. You seem to have this crazy idea that questions provide answers.





God KNEW what they did.

But you have God saying "Good for you! I'm so pleased that you sinned, that you fell, that you are now evil! I made it all happened!" God didn't say that, did He? And you have Him adding, " I caused it! But YOU are responsible for doing what I made you do."






IF your read the book, it says SATAN did.





For God to WANT Adam to sin, for God to CAUSE Adam to sin, He first had to cease to be holy... He had to become sinful - desiring evil and wrong. And of course, if God CAUSED it, God is the one responsible for it.





No, that's YOUR theory. Your horrible, illogical, unbiblical, unchristian theory.... that the Holy God become evil... and thus desired and caused Adam and Eve to sin and rebel and fall.





Since you claim God WANTED and CAUSED them to sin, yes - causing one to sin is sinful.




It never says God WANTED or CAUSED Peter to sin. You know that. We all do.

If God CAUSES sin, that makes Him sinful, He is the responsible one.

I reject the premise that we have an evil God causing evil.



.

Nothing? Did God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden knowing man would fall? Yes, or no. Did God let Satan into the perfect Garden and to the Tree, knowing man would fall? Yes, or no.

I didn't say anything about 'forced' or 'make' Adam sin. What I have said is that if God didn't want Adam to fall, He wouldn't have put the Tree or Satan in there, as He knew Adam would fall.

Well, yes, we are told. As I have said, Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, long before Adam fell. (Rev. 13:8) Do you believe that? That means redemption was part of God's plan before the fall of Adam. Which means the Fall was part of God's plan. Unless you believe the Fall caught God by surprise. Which begs the question why Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world?

And, as I have said, death was always part of God's plan for man. (John 12:23-24) "...Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone...." Life out of death. Without the Fall and death there would be no need of redemption. No Resurrection. And at the Resurrection is where Jesus is declared 'begotten of God'. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33) Which is where our birthing room is also as sons of God. (1 Peter 1:3) In other words, the Fall was always God's plan to obtain 'true sons' born of Him. Adam and Eve in the garden was not the end of what God wanted. It was a means to the end.

Questions are the motivation to seek answers. Why did you not address (2 Chron. 18:20-22) and (Is. 45:6-7)?

Concerning (Gen. 3:9), yes God knew Adam fell. Why did He call out to him, 'Where art thou'? And no, I am not saying what you accuse me of. That is what you present me as saying.

Concerning my question concerning Job: Who destroyed Job and his possessions?, where in (Job) does it say Satan did? I am not doubting it, I just want you to give me the Biblical reference.

No, God did not become sinful in creating the situation whereby Adam would fall. Man will always fall. Both man and the angels are creatures less than God. Thus they will always fall. God created Satan perfect yet he was a murderer from the beginning. (John 8:44) Was God sinful in creating Lucifer? Of course not. Did God know who Satan was when He created him? Of course He did.

No, I have never said God was evil or guilty of sin because the Fall of Adam was His plan. That's you. I have said God knew Adam would sin and fall and the fall was part of God's plan for man. Due to the fall of Adam God could have many sons born of Him. Without it, He could not. Life out of death.

Concerning (Luke 22:31-32) I asked you if God knew Peter would deny Christ when He turned him over to Satan. Let me answer since you don't want to. Of course He knew. (John 13:38) Did that make God evil for turning him over to Satan, knowing he would deny Christ? Of course not.

That we have an 'evil god' is your premise. Not mine.

That's your heresy.

If you misspoke.... then make that clear. If you desire to return to the biblical, Christian view... we all welcome that.

I haven't misspoke. The Fall of Adam was part of God's plan. That is not heresy.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

@Lees


You posted,

We are talking about God's actions in light of His foreknowledge.

Which was nothing. God did NOTHING to cause or force or make Adam do anything. Your claim that GOD is the author of evil and sin... that GOD is the one who CAUSED the Fall and sin... your claim that God DID things that CAUSED that is your heresy.

If God had the power to create another way....if God had the power to stop Adam from falling, but didn't....how is that not the same as causing and desiring it?

God doesn't allow anything He doesn't want to happen

God causes sin

There's your horrible, unbiblical, unchristian heresy. The heresy we're rejecting. You make other points too that no one is debating but you support it with this incredible, horrible, very unchristian heresy of an evil God who desires and causes sin and evil.

The point we disagree with: your horrible theology of making GOD the evil one (and working hard to switch it from Satan), GOD the Author of evil and sin, GOD the One responsible for evil, sin and the Fall.

You insist God CAUSES it.

A few times now, I've given you the opportunity to say you misspoke and don't hold to this radical, horrible, so very unchristian view.... but instead you insist that it 's true and biblical...

This is your error: Your theology that God CAUSES evil, sin and the Fall. That God is the Author, Source, Cause, Reason for evil, sin and the Fall. And your apologetic seems based entirely on substituting God for Satan and confusing foreknowledge with determinism.

Did God let Satan into the perfect Garden and to the Tree, knowing man would fall? Yes, or no.

Perhaps. But God is not Satan. God is not satanic. God is not the Evil One. You seem to be confusing God and Satan, trying to make God the one who is to blame in order to support your claim that God is the cause of evil, the cause of sin, the cause of the Fall.

Concerning (Gen. 3:9), yes God knew Adam fell. Why did He call out to him, 'Where art thou'?

1. You continue to confuse foreknowledge with determinism and predestination. I know the sun will rise tomorrow, I will not cause that to happen and am not responsible for it.

2. You seem to have God saying, "Way to go, Adam!!! Great job! You did exactly as I wanted - but then you had no choice because I caused it."

Concerning my question concerning Job: Who destroyed Job and his possessions?,

SATAN did.

Again, you seem to need to substitute God for Satan in order to support your horrible theology that GOD is the one responsible for sin, evil and the Fall... that GOD caused it... that GOD is the Author of evil: that We must point the finger of blame not at poor Satan or at ourselves but at God.

No, God did not become sinful in creating the situation whereby Adam would fall.

Since you insist that God caused Adam to be evil... since God desired and brought about evil, sin and the Fall.... then He HAD to cease to be holy, He had to be sinful, He had to have fallen.

God is holy, He calls on us to be holy. It's just nonsense for you to argue that a HOLY God (who insists we be holy) desires and causes us to be evil. For your position to make ANY sense, God would have to have ceased being holy and become evil in order to want and cause others to be evil. Here again, you are confusing God with Satan.




@Lees ... as a brother in Christ, I encourage you to stop... take a step back... think and pray... because I sincerely doubt that you actually believe what you are posting; that perhaps you heard/read this horrible apologetic used to support your (correct) view that God always has a plan and that God can turn evil to good, and you're just parroting it. Give it some thought. Consider what we've posted to you. Consider you're over-stating things to the point of proclaiming a huge error. AND (especially as a Lutheran, LOL) I ask you to at least consider that there may be some mystery at work here... some puzzle piece we just don't know about? That not every question can be answered (or needs to be)? God is not the cause of evil.... yes, He seems to at times allow it (and we don't fully know why) but that does not make Him the cause and therefore evil Himself. That's just not the "right answer."






.

 

[Lees]

@Lees


You posted,


Which was nothing. God did NOTHING to cause or force or make Adam do anything. Your claim that GOD is the author of evil and sin... that GOD is the one who CAUSED the Fall and sin... your claim that God DID things that CAUSED that is your heresy.









There's your horrible, unbiblical, unchristian heresy. The heresy we're rejecting. You make other points too that no one is debating but you support it with this incredible, horrible, very unchristian heresy of an evil God who desires and causes sin and evil.

The point we disagree with: your horrible theology of making GOD the evil one (and working hard to switch it from Satan), the Author of evil and sin, the One responsible for these things.

You insist God CAUSES it.

A few times now, I've given you the opportunity to say you misspoke and don't hold to this radical, horrible, so very unchristian view.... but instead you insist that it 's true and biblical...

This is your error: Your theology that God CAUSES evil, sin and the Fall. That God is the Author, Source, Cause, Reason for evil, sin and the Fall. And your apologetic seems based entirely on substituting God for Satan and confusing foreknowledge with determinism.







Perhaps. But God is not Satan. God is not satanic. God is not the Evil One. You seem to be confusing God and Satan, trying to make God the one who is to blame in order to support your claim that God is the cause of evil, the cause of sin, the cause of the Fall.






You continue to confuse foreknowledge with determinism and predestination. I know the sun will rise tomorrow, I will not cause that to happen and am not responsible for it.

But you seem to have God saying, "Way to go, Adam!!! Great job! You did exactly as I wanted - but then you had no choice because I caused it."






SATAN did.

Again, you seem to need to substitute Satan for God in order to support your horrible theology that GOD is the one responsible for sin, evil and the Fall... that GOD caused it... that GOD is the Author of evil. We must point the finger of blame not at poor Satan or at ourselves but at God.






Since you insist that God caused Adam to be evil... since God desired and brought about evil, sin and the Fall.... then He HAD to cease to be holy, He had to be sinful, He had to have fallen.

God is holy, He calls on us to be holy. It's just nonsense for you to argue that a HOLY God (who insists we be holy) desires and causes us to be evil. For your position to make ANY sense, God would have to have ceased being holy and become evil in order to want and cause others to be evil. Here again, you are confusing God with Satan.

I never said God forced Adam to do anything. That is your statement, not mine. I never claimed God is the author of evil. That is your statement, not mine. I said the Fall of man was the plan of God. God, knowing man would fall, placed man in the Garden with the Tree, with the prohibition, with Satan the one who tempted. That is not heresy. That is fact. Or do you disagree?

You are misrepresenting me when you have me saying, "God causes sin". I never have said that. You have made your interpretation a quote of mine. Quite dishonest I would say. God knew man would sin. God knew man would fall. The Fall of man was part of the plan of God. If the Fall of man was not the plan of God, then Satan defeated God.

Why do you keep saying 'we'. Who is 'we'? I am talking to 'you'.

I am not making God the 'evil one' as you accuse me of. That the Fall of man was the plan of God, does not make God evil. Where do you get that? Yes, I insist that the Fall was the plan of God. How can the Redemption provided by Christ be from the foundation of the world if the Fall was not from the foundation of the world? (Rev. 13:8) And if God knew man would sin and fall, and yet provided the Tree with the prohibition, and let Satan in the Garden to tempt, knowing man would fall, how is that not the plan of God?

I have never said God was Satan. Again, that is you. I do say the Fall of man was the plan of God. Satan is not trying to do the bidding of God. But Satan always plays into God's hand every time.

I asked you if God let Satan in the Garden and to the Tree, and you say 'perhaps'. What a faithless answer. Perhaps God didn't know? Perhaps Satan snuck in there when God wasn't looking? Poor God...He better start being more observant. How silly. God knew full well where Satan was and what he was up to. You don't want to admit it so you would rather make God look negligent concerning His creation.

Concerning (Gen. 3:9), why are you afraid to answer the question? Why did God call out to Adam, "Where art thou"?

Why do you ignore my question to you concerning Job. You made the claim that Satan destroyed Job and his possessions. I asked you to show me the Scripture you use to prove that. And you ignore it. Why? Does Scripture bother you at this point? Here, let me help. Satan has to report to God for his goings forth. (Job 1:6) God brings up the subject of Job to Satan. (1:8) Satan acknowledges he can't get to Job because of God's protection. (1:9-10) Satan says "But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath", (1:11) And God said, "all that he hath is in thy power, except Job himself". (1:12) Later Satan asked for God to put forth His hand against the person of Job. (2:5) And God gave Satan power over Job, save his life. (2:6)

So, did you catch that? It was by God's hand, but Satan was the instrument used. Do you agree? Or is that another 'perhaps'? Does that make God evil? Does that make God the author of evil? Job's demise was the plan of God. Just like the Fall of man was the plan of God. Did God cease to be holy concerning Job?

Again, why do you not address (2 Chron. 18:20-22) and (Is. 45:6-7)? Did God cease to be holy in these verses?

We are told in (John 8:44) that Satan was a murderer from the beginning. Did God know who Satan was when He created Lucifer? Does that make God evil? Did God cease to be holy when He created Satan?

Was God evil for turning Peter over to Satan when He knew Peter would deny Christ. (Lu. 22:31-32) (John 13:38) Was God guilty of Peter's denial? Did God cease to be holy concerning Peter's sin?

No, I am not confusing anything. I am asking serious questions that merit serious answers which you cannot/will not provide. Funny isn't it? You want to brand me a heretic and unBiblical, yet my posts are filled with Scripture and yours are not. And you try and avoid many of them.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

I never said God forced Adam to do anything.

You stated God CAUSED Adam to sin, to fall, to rebel.

I never claimed God is the author of evil.

Since you insist God CAUSES evil, then by definition He is the author, the cause, the source of such.

I said....

Verbatim quotes from your posts in this thread...


"If God had the power to create another way....if God had the power to stop Adam from falling, but didn't....how is that not the same as causing and desiring it?"

"God doesn't allow anything He doesn't want to happen"

"God causes sin"


Now... if after consideration and prayer, you now retract that, you now are returning to biblical, orthodox, traditional Christianity, then praise God.

I am not making God the 'evil one' as you accuse me of.

So.... CAUSING sin, evil, the Fall.... that doesn't make God evil? How can an all-holy God CAUSE evil, be the source of evil?

I have never said God was Satan.

But you DO attribute to God what the Bible and Christianity attributes to Satan. You've made that the centerpiece of your whole apologetic.

Satan is not trying to do the bidding of God.

Well, since you claim that God is the cause of sin and evil... that God caused the Fall... then I guess you hold that God did Satan's job for him.

God knew full well where Satan was and what he was up to.

NO one here... ever.... has questioned God's foreknowledge. What we are rejecting is your confusion of foreknowledge with determinism and predestination... your complete confusion of what God KNOW with what He DESIRES and CAUSES.

Concerning (Gen. 3:9), why are you afraid to answer the question? Why did God call out to Adam, "Where art thou"?

Answered. Repeatedly.

Why do you ignore my question to you concerning Job. You made the claim that Satan destroyed Job and his possessions. I asked you to show me the Scripture you use to prove that. And you ignore it. Why? Does Scripture bother you at this point? Here, let me help. Satan has to report to God for his goings forth. (Job 1:6) God brings up the subject of Job to Satan. (1:8) Satan acknowledges he can't get to Job because of God's protection. (1:9-10) Satan says "But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath", (1:11) And God said, "all that he hath is in thy power, except Job himself". (1:12) Later Satan asked for God to put forth His hand against the person of Job. (2:5) And God gave Satan power over Job, save his life. (2:6)

Right. SATAN did it. The MOST you can take from this is that God seems to permit it but He does not cause it, He is not the source of it.... you can't even show from Scripture that God WILLED or DESIRED it. But here again (you've done this in several places) you attribute to GOD what Scripture attributes to Satan. You must confuse God and Satan to try to defend your position.... just as you must confuse foreknowledge with determination.

Does that make God evil? Does that make God the author of evil?

In your theology, absolutely. Holiness does not cause evil. You must hold to a fallen, evil God who THUS can cause evil.

We are told in (John 8:44) that Satan was a murderer from the beginning. Did God know who Satan was when He created Lucifer? Does that make God evil? Did God cease to be holy when He created Satan?

But you changed this... you have GOD a murderer from the beginning, GOD as the evil one who CAUSED Adam to fall, who CAUSED evil in our world, who CAUSED sin. That requires that you displace Satan and put God in his place, as you keep trying to do - as here again.

You want to brand me a heretic and unBiblical, yet my posts are filled with Scripture and yours are not. And you try and avoid many of them.

Not ONE of the Scriptures you quote state that God is the cause of evil... the reason Adam fell.... the source of sin.

Not ONE of them has God taking the place of Satan.


You just keep confusing foreknowledge with determinism and predestination.... confusing God with Satan.... raising the wholly illogical (and yes unbiblical) point that the Holy is the cause of evil. And you just keep defending this horrible, obviously unchristian view.



@Lees

I keep hoping that you'll step back.... THINK about your claim here!!! Because I sincerely have a hard time believing that any Christian can proclaim and defend what you are. IF you realize how you have stated incorrectly, or not as you actually believe - then I rejoice! One fruit of these discussions is that error (even if entirely unwittingly, unintentionally) can be shown.... and we can help each other stay in the fold and not wander into error. Many us - including me - have experienced that. And friend, again, yet again, NO ONE HERE is debating your questioning or disagreeing with your point about God's plan or how God can turn bad into good. We're disagreeing with your persistent theology that God CAUSES evil and sin (and thus IS evil and sin)... that God is responsible for all this (not God or man)... that foreknowledge is the same as predestination and determinism. But again, maybe you aren't posting your actual belief.... or maybe you've realized your error and want to return to biblical, historic Christianity. I hope so. And if those of us posting to you here have helped with that, well, that's good too. One of the reasons we're here. And hey... Tango, Lamb, Albion and several others here have helped me at several points.



.

 

[Albion]

I never said God forced Adam to do anything. That is your statement, not mine. I never claimed God is the author of evil. That is your statement, not mine. I said the Fall of man was the plan of God. God, knowing man would fall, placed man in the Garden with the Tree, with the prohibition, with Satan the one who tempted. That is not heresy. That is fact. Or do you disagree?

You may have meant something other than what you wrote. But all the reader can go by is what you did write, so your protestations at this point in the discussion are not going to work. Here is what you wrote:

God had the power to create another way....if God had the power to stop Adam from falling, but didn't....how is that not the same as causing and desiring it?

God doesn't allow anything He doesn't want to happen

God causes sin

You are misrepresenting me when you have me saying, "God causes sin". I never have said that.

Not in those exact words, but if he did "cause" to happen what did happen, and it is evil and contrary to God's will, then he would indeed be causing sin. That's undeniable.

You have made your interpretation a quote of mine.

It's not an "interpretation."

 

[Lees]

You stated God CAUSED Adam to sin, to fall, to rebel.




Since you insist God CAUSES evil, then by definition He is the author, the cause, the source of such.





Verbatim quotes from your posts in this thread...


"If God had the power to create another way....if God had the power to stop Adam from falling, but didn't....how is that not the same as causing and desiring it?"

"God doesn't allow anything He doesn't want to happen"

"God causes sin"


Now... if after consideration and prayer, you now retract that, you now are returning to biblical, orthodox, traditional Christianity, then praise God.










So.... CAUSING sin, evil, the Fall.... that doesn't make God evil? How can an all-holy God CAUSE evil, be the source of evil?





But you DO attribute to God what the Bible and Christianity attributes to Satan. You've made that the centerpiece of your whole apologetic.






Well, since you claim that God is the cause of sin and evil... that God caused the Fall... then I guess you hold that God did Satan's job for him.





NO one here... ever.... has questioned God's foreknowledge. What we are rejecting is your confusion of foreknowledge with determinism and predestination... your complete confusion of what God KNOW with what He DESIRES and CAUSES.






Answered. Repeatedly.





Right. SATAN did it. The MOST you can take from this is that God seems to permit it but He does not cause it, He is not the source of it.... you can't even show from Scripture that God WILLED or DESIRED it. But here again (you've done this in several places) you attribute to GOD what Scripture attributes to Satan. You must confuse God and Satan to try to defend your position.... just as you must confuse foreknowledge with determination.






In your theology, absolutely. Holiness does not cause evil. You must hold to a fallen, evil God who THUS can cause evil.





But you changed this... you have GOD a murderer from the beginning, GOD as the evil one who CAUSED Adam to fall, who CAUSED evil in our world, who CAUSED sin. That requires that you displace Satan and put God in his place, as you keep trying to do - as here again.





Not ONE of the Scriptures you quote state that God is the cause of evil... the reason Adam fell.... the source of sin.

Not ONE of them has God taking the place of Satan.


You just keep confusing foreknowledge with determinism and predestination.... confusing God with Satan.... raising the wholly illogical (and yes unbiblical) point that the Holy is the cause of evil. And you just keep defending this horrible, obviously unchristian view.



@Lees

I keep hoping that you'll step back.... THINK about your claim here!!! Because I sincerely have a hard time believing that any Christian can proclaim and defend what you are. IF you realize how you have stated incorrectly, or not as you actually believe - then I rejoice! One fruit of these discussions is that error (even if entirely unwittingly, unintentionally) can be shown.... and we can help each other stay in the fold and not wander into error. Many us - including me - have experienced that. And friend, again, yet again, NO ONE HERE is debating your questioning or disagreeing with your point about God's plan or how God can turn bad into good. We're disagreeing with your persistent theology that God CAUSES evil and sin (and thus IS evil and sin)... that God is responsible for all this (not God or man)... that foreknowledge is the same as predestination and determinism. But again, maybe you aren't posting your actual belief.... or maybe you've realized your error and want to return to biblical, historic Christianity. I hope so. And if those of us posting to you here have helped with that, well, that's good too. One of the reasons we're here. And hey... Tango, Lamb, Albion and several others here have helped me at several points.



.

Again, you have misquoted me. The quote you say I said comes from my post # (8). I never said "God causes sin" That is your addition falsifying what I said. What I said was, if God had the power to stop the fall and didn't, how is that not the same as desiring and causing it. In other words, God caused the Fall as the Fall was always God's plan.

Your false interpretation of what I said is not a quote of mine as you have presented.

I never said God was evil. That's you. I never said God was Satan. That's you. I never said God did Satan's bidding. That's you. What I said was that Satan always plays into God's hand every time. In other words, it's God's will that gets done though Satan can't recognize it.

I asked you if God let Satan into the Garden and to the Tree. You say 'perhaps'. Explain how perhaps Satan got in the Garden without God's knowing it. How did Satan get to the Tree without God's knowing it? Your 'perhaps' is a denial of the omniscience of God.

Concerning (Gen. 3:9), no. You never answered it. Why did God call out to Adam, 'Where art thou'?

Concerning Job, your unbelief is amazing. God didn't 'permit' Job's destruction. God caused Job's destruction. Satan didn't come asking about Job. God brought the subject of Job up to Satan. (1:8) "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job" Satan couldn't touch Job for the hedge God placed around him. (1:10)

Satan said to God concerning Job's destruction, (Job 1:11), "But put forth thine hand now and touch all that he hath" And in (2:5), "But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh" Whose 'hand' is this? God's or Satan's? Just because Satan was used by God, it was God's hand that brought Jobs destruction. Just like with the Fall of Adam in the Garden. It was the plan of God.

Please address the verses, (2 Chron. 18:20-22) and (Is. 45:6-7). Do these make God not holy?

I am not the one saying God is not holy. You are. That is your theology, not mine.

Concerning (John 8:44) I didn't change anything. I simply asked you questions. We are told Satan was a murderer from the beginning. Did God know that when He created Lucifer? Of course He did. He is God. Does that make God unholy? Of course not. Does that make God evil? Of course not. But He created him knowing full well what that would set in motion. Didn't He? Or was He ignorant of what He was doing? Again, your unbelief is amazing. See again, (Is. 45:7) "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." See also (2 Chron. 18:20-22) "...there came out a spirit and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him.....he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets...behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets..." Are these Scriptures true? Yes. Are these the acts of a Holy God. Of course they are. Correct?

No, the Scriptures I have given speak for themselves. They reveal an all knowing and all powerful God. They destroy your wishy/washy view of God as just 'allowing' or 'permitting'. Which is why you must always answer with 'perhaps'.

Nice speech. I do not step back from anything I have said. The Fall was God's plan just as the Redemption was God's plan. Death was God's plan because out of death comes life. (John 12:23-24)

Be sure and correct your false quote of me. You made it first in your post # (28). Compare my post # (8).

Lees

 

[Lees]

You may have meant something other than what you wrote. But all the reader can go by is what you did write, so your protestations at this point in the discussion are not going to work. Here is what you wrote:






Not in those exact words, but if he did "cause" to happen what did happen, and it is evil and contrary to God's will, then he would indeed be causing sin. That's undeniable.


It's not an "interpretation."

No. I never wrote 'God causes sin'. Go to post # (8) and show me the quote. It's not there. I never said it. I am falsely represented as having said it.

Go to post # (28) where Josiah quotes me as saying it. That is a false quote.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

Again, you have misquoted me. What I said was, if God had the power to stop the fall and didn't, how is that not the same as desiring and causing it. In other words, God caused the Fall.

So, I quoted you accurately and exactly. The "fall" meant the introduction of evil and sin for humanity and our world.

And there's your horrible, unbiblical, unchristian heresy.

I never said God was evil.

But He CAUSES and DESIRES evil, sin - The Fall.

Holy cannot cause evil. Only evil can cause evil.

No, the Scriptures I have given speak for themselves

And clearly, obviously, don't say or support your heresy. NONE of them state that God desires and causes evil, sin, the Fall. We all know that.

They reveal an all knowing and all powerful God.

Yup. But your heresy depends on confusing knowing with causing. With God taking on the role Scripture and Christianity gives to Satan and mankind.



.

 

[Lees]

So, I quoted you accurately and exactly. The "fall" meant the introduction of evil and sin for humanity and our world.

And there's your horrible, unbiblical, unchristian heresy.






But He CAUSES and DESIRES evil, sin - The Fall.

Holy cannot cause evil. Only evil can cause evil.





And clearly, obviously, don't say or support your heresy. NONE of them state that God desires and causes evil, sin, the Fall. We all know that.






Yup. But your heresy depends on confusing knowing with causing. With God taking on the role Scripture and Christianity gives to Satan and mankind.

No. You presented 'me saying' that 'God causes sin' in your post # (28). That is a lie. I never said that. See again post #(8). I never said that.

We are not talking about how you interpret what I said, we are talking about what I said. And you, for some reason, have lied about what I said.

Correct your 'error'. Better yet, call all those compatriots of yours that you say compose the 'we' in your posts, and include them in your lie. I would like to see how many will partake of this. It's not hard to see where this is going.

Lees

 

[Albion]

No. I never wrote 'God causes sin'. Go to post # (8) and show me the quote. It's not there. I never said it. I am falsely represented as having said it.

Here it is (post #8), so please stop with the denials. You can say that you meant something else, but it's clear that you did indeed write what we've been responding to (put by me in red for emphasis),

If God had the power to create another way....if God had the power to stop Adam from falling, but didn't....how is that not the same as causing and desiring it?

And that's just to comment on post #8...because that was the post to which you directed us and asked to have it presented to you. There are others.

 

[Lees]

Here it is (post #8), so please stop with the denials. You can say that you meant something else, but it's clear that you did indeed write what we've been responding to,

No. In post #(28) I am 'quoted' as saying 'God causes sin'. I never said that. Those are not my words. They have been added.

Are you saying on this forum that I can add to what you say and present it as a quote of yours?

Again, in post # (28), Josiah quotes me as saying "God causes sin". That's not me. That's been added. That is a lie. A lie that you are willing to partake in. See the same in post #(25).

How many others will partake of this lie? Such 'valued contributors' you are.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

@Lees, I think we're done.

OBVIOUSLY, UNDENIABLY you have stated that God desired and caused the Fall. Albion and I have quoted you. AND you have persistently defended that position, the position you now claim you never said but boldly defend.

You've been given several opportunities to post that you misspoke, that you don't actually believe what you posted. It happens (it has for all of us at some point) BUT you've not done that, instead you persistently have gone to lengths trying to defend what you said while (now) denying what everyone knows you did.

Your defense of the position you stated but deny you stated show a horrible confusion of God and Satan (attributing to God what Scripture and Tradition ascribes to Satan) and a complete misunderstanding of the difference between foreknowledge and predestination/determinism. You have been shown this repeatedly but either just don't get it (which I doubt, surely you understand) or need to ignore in order to defend your position.

It's nuts. We've TRIED (hard... repeatedly) to engage you and help you. We're wasting our time. Your STATED view that the Holy GOD willed and CAUSED the Fall (evil, sin, unholiness) is a horrible, horrible heresy. A very dangerous heresy that in essence destroys the basis of Christianity. I wish you'd be open to examining that but you aren't. IF you state this again, we have no choice but to repudiate it (heresy must not be allowed to stand uncorrected) but clearly, obviously, you are not willing to examine your horrible position. Perhaps you'll do much better on other topics, although we all now know you hold to an evil God who wills and causes evil.

Moving on.....




.

 

[Lees]

@Lees, I think we're done.

OBVIOUSLY, UNDENIABLY you have stated that God desired and caused the Fall. Albion and I have quoted you. AND you have persistently defended that position, the position you now claim you never said but boldly defend.

You've been given several opportunities to post that you misspoke, that you don't actually believe what you posted. It happens (it has for all of us at some point) BUT you've not done that, instead you persistently have gone to lengths trying to defend what you said while (now) denying what everyone knows you did.

Your defense of the position you stated but deny you stated show a horrible confusion of God and Satan (attributing to God what Scripture and Tradition ascribes to Satan) and a complete misunderstanding of the difference between foreknowledge and predestination/determinism. You have been shown this repeatedly but either just don't get it (which I doubt, surely you understand) or need to ignore in order to defend your position.

It's nuts. We've TRIED (hard... repeatedly) to engage you and help you. We're wasting our time. Your STATED view that the Holy GOD willed and CAUSED the Fall (evil, sin, unholiness) is a horrible, horrible heresy. A very dangerous heresy that in essence destroys the basis of Christianity. I wish you'd be open to examining that but you aren't. IF you state this again, we have no choice but to repudiate it (heresy must not be allowed to stand uncorrected) but clearly, obviously, you are not willing to examine your horrible position. Perhaps you'll do much better on other topics, although we all now know you hold to an evil God who wills and causes evil.

Moving on.....

We're done because you can't prove your position. We're done because you have to lie about what I said. We're done because you ain't man enough to admit it along with your cohort Albion.

Your lie is there for all to see as I have demonstrated.

You ignore the Scriptures I give because they are against you and you have no defense. And you offer no Scriptures. All you do is keep saying 'God is Holy', 'God is Holy'. Which is true but it doesn't prove your position.

What do you mean 'if I state this again' you will 'repudiate it'? You haven't repudiated it this time. All you have showed is that you have to lie in order to misrepresent what I have said.

Yeah, go ahead and move on. That is the safest thing for you to do.

Lees

 

[Tulipbee]

Does God control everything that happens in my life?

In Calvinism, the concept of God's sovereignty is central. It is believed that God controls everything that happens in the universe, including individual lives. This view is often associated with the doctrine of predestination, where God has predetermined all events, including the salvation or damnation of individuals.

Calvinists emphasize God's absolute sovereignty and meticulous providence, suggesting that every aspect of life, from major events to the minutest details, is under God's control. This perspective is derived from a particular interpretation of biblical passages that highlight God's authority and omniscience.

It's important to note that not all Christians or theological perspectives share this view, and interpretations of God's sovereignty can vary among different denominations and theological traditions.