Are NDEs evidence of the soul?

[atpollard]

I read about some hospital that has a sign with a word that changes daily displayed on top of a cabinet in the OR as part of research into people who claim to be floating above and looking down on their body. So far no one remembers seeing the word and can name it.

Make of that whatever you wish.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I personally don't think that Near Death Experiences (or NDE) are proof of anything. I distrust people who make claims that they died and went to heaven.

What about the ones whose lives were visibly changed for the better, such as Howard Storm? He used to be an atheist and strongly against religion, but after his NDE he quit his job as a college professor and became a Christian pastor. His wife and kids remained atheists and left him because they couldn't relate to him anymore. He gave numerous tv interviews on the matter and made hundreds of online videos talking about his experience. Yes, he did write several books, but they are not best-sellers and he struggles financially, so it's clear that he didn't do this for the money.

Howard Storm – New Book 'Following Jesus' Available Now

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howardstorm.com

Howard Storm (author) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Lamb]

What about the ones whose lives were visibly changed for the better, such as Howard Storm? He used to be an atheist and strongly against religion, but after his NDE he quit his job as a college professor and became a Christian pastor. His wife and kids remained atheists and left him because they couldn't relate to him anymore. He gave numerous tv interviews on the matter and made hundreds of online videos talking about his experience. Yes, he did write several books, but they are not best-sellers and he struggles financially, so it's clear that he didn't do this for the money.

Howard Storm – New Book 'Following Jesus' Available Now

BeProfile | Best WordPress theme for personal site

howardstorm.com

Howard Storm (author) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

His changing wasn't evidence of near death, but the fact that God's planted seed came to fruition. He admits that he grew up as a liberal Protestant.

Howard Storm Near Death experience - Medjugorje WebSite

Howard Storm Near Death experience - It was the 1st June 1985, and I was in France. I was leading a group of students on an art tour. My wife was with me, and it had come to the last day of our trip. In mid-sentence, I fell to the ground, screaming with intense pain in my stomach. An ambulance...

www.medjugorje.ws

 

[Albion]

What about the ones whose lives were visibly changed for the better, such as Howard Storm? He used to be an atheist and strongly against religion, but after his NDE he quit his job as a college professor and became a Christian pastor. His wife and kids remained atheists and left him because they couldn't relate to him anymore. He gave numerous tv interviews on the matter and made hundreds of online videos talking about his experience. Yes, he did write several books, but they are not best-sellers and he struggles financially, so it's clear that he didn't do this for the money.

What that seems to demonstrate is not that his NDE was genuine or a proof of the soul, etc., but simply that he believed it to be proof.

I am not one to dismiss NDEs out of hand, but for somebody to have a change of life on account of something that happened to them without any certain and scientific reason is not unusual.

 

[Messy3]

Ian Mc Cormack was 15 or 45 mins dead, but they often are not impressed when it's that short.
That guy from Africa was 3 days dead and there's proof from the guy who declared him dead and the guy from the morgue.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Ian Mc Cormack was 15 or 45 mins dead, but they often are not impressed when it's that short.
That guy from Africa was 3 days dead and there's proof from the guy who declared him dead and the guy from the morgue.

Do you believe that near-death experiences are real, Messy? Does God allow humans to see heaven and then return to their bodies to tell the story?

 

[Albion]

Ian Mc Cormack was 15 or 45 mins dead, but they often are not impressed when it's that short.
That guy from Africa was 3 days dead and there's proof from the guy who declared him dead and the guy from the morgue.

Unfortunately, these are claims that have possible explanations. The point of NDEs is that such experiences defy all explanation other than that the soul continues on after physical death.

For example, the person who was pronounced dead reveals something that he could not have known otherwise and which is demonstrably true. To have anyone claim that he saw or talked with angels in paradise while deceased (or thought to be deceased) is not what makes an NDE be something noteworthy.

 

[Messy3]

Hey offtopic but see Lees they're white!

 

[Messy3]

Do you believe that near-death experiences are real, Messy? Does God allow humans to see heaven and then return to their bodies to tell the story?

Yes

 

[Messy3]

Unfortunately, these are claims that have possible explanations. The point of NDEs is that such experiences defy all explanation other than that the soul continues on after physical death.

For example, the person who was pronounced dead reveals something that he could not have known otherwise and which is demonstrably true. To have anyone claim that he saw or talked with angels in paradise while deceased (or thought to be deceased) is not what makes an NDE be something noteworthy.

Oh but I have also heard stories that they saw their body laying there and saw them trying to bring them back to life. Suppose they put for instance a red pot there and then bring em elsewhere, they can later ask what they saw and check.

 

[Albion]

Yes

To be absolutely clear, NDEs MAY be real, but most of the claims of people saying that they have had a Near Death Experience do not describe what a Near Death Experience is all about.

These are merely tales told about supposed experiences in heaven or hell or the like. That does not describe a genuine NDE.

Oh but I have also heard stories that they saw their body laying there and saw them trying to bring them back to life. Suppose they put for instance a red pot there and then bring them elsewhere, they can later ask what they saw and check.

All right, but saying that you were pronounced dead and taken to a mortuary, then reviving and telling what you "saw" in heaven while in that state, is just talk, not really different from a dream. If it is something that COULD NOT BE KNOWN by the person in question, but is undeniably correct, then we're into the realm of an NDE, whether or not we believe such things are proof of life after death.

 

[Messy3]

To be absolutely clear, NDEs MAY be real, but most of the claims of people saying that they have had a Near Death Experience do not describe what a Near Death Experience is all about.

These are merely tales told about supposed experiences in heaven or hell or the like. That does not describe a genuine NDE.



All right, but saying that you were pronounced dead and taken to a mortuary, then reviving and telling what you "saw" in heaven while in that state, is just talk, not really different from a dream. If it is something that COULD NOT BE KNOWN by the person in question, but is undeniably correct, then we're into the realm of an NDE, whether or not we believe such things are proof of life after death.

I check it with the Bible. These I believe to be true, but I have also read and heard others which I reject. Like some girl who wasnt even dead, but she said Jesus took her to hell and she saw a woman who was there for using hair dye or mascara. That sounds more like a deceiving demonic experience or a weird WOF or NAR preacher who saw roller coasters in heaven. That was a woman with purple hair. I don't take that serious. Oh wait. There was a boy who saw things he couldn't know, that his mother had a miscarriage and he saw that one. Maybe it was this one:

- YouTube

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[Messy3]

 

[Albion]

I check it with the Bible. These I believe to be true, but I have also read and heard others which I reject. Like some girl who wasnt even dead, but she said Jesus took her to hell and she saw a woman who was there for using hair dye or mascara. That sounds more like a deceiving demonic experience or a weird WOF or NAR preacher who saw roller coasters in heaven. That was a woman with purple hair. I don't take that serious. Oh wait. There was a boy who saw things he couldn't know, that his mother had a miscarriage and he saw that one. Maybe it was this one:

- YouTube

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Except that he COULD have known or thought that she had had a miscarriage. The fact is that we assume that he had never been given that information, and it is unlikely that he would have known it, but he still could have been so informed. Or, if not that, he could have gotten the idea for one reason or another and it happened to turn out to be correct.

A true NDE, whether or not anyone believes in such things, deals with experiences that the person in question relays afterwards and absolutely could not have known according to all that we know (except for the possibility that NDEs are indeed evidence of a continuing consciousness after physical death).

 

[Forgiven1]

I personally don't think that Near Death Experiences (or NDE) are proof of anything. I distrust people who make claims that they died and went to heaven.

I agree, especially with my own experiences.
I have personally exprienced NDE twice, maybe 3 times. Never did I experience any images of heaven or hell. I did have the flashing lights one time. They got my heart rate functioning, yet I was in and our consciousness while I was being stabilized. This one happened in the ER. My pulse had gone to 0.

I don't discount the stories of people who say they were floating above and saw what was going on during resuscitation. I would come to enough to know what was going on, but not all of.

My experiences include:
1. Drowning- I was in the water and then in an ambulance puking out my guts. Not really sure what was done.
2. Afib episode with the reversal medication taking my heart rate to 0 in an ER.
3. Afib episode with a different reversal med and happened in an airport gate area. Came to on my own and don't have the hard data as to what happened exactly. EMS called. During ride to hospital periodically close to losing consciousness.

Just stating what has happened to me. As someone said, one can and does make changes in their life after these incidences. I also had cancer 20 years ago. Not near death, but yet a type of event that one makes changes too.

 

[Messy3]

What about the ones whose lives were visibly changed for the better, such as Howard Storm? He used to be an atheist and strongly against religion, but after his NDE he quit his job as a college professor and became a Christian pastor. His wife and kids remained atheists and left him because they couldn't relate to him anymore. He gave numerous tv interviews on the matter and made hundreds of online videos talking about his experience. Yes, he did write several books, but they are not best-sellers and he struggles financially, so it's clear that he didn't do this for the money.

Howard Storm – New Book 'Following Jesus' Available Now

BeProfile | Best WordPress theme for personal site

howardstorm.com

Howard Storm (author) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oh he was an atheist. I once saw a testimony of an atheist who was revived by a christian doctor.



This was another one.

 

[Messy3]

Except that he COULD have known or thought that she had had a miscarriage. The fact is that we assume that he had never been given that information, and it is unlikely that he would have known it, but he still could have been so informed. Or, if not that, he could have gotten the idea for one reason or another and it happened to turn out to be correct.

A true NDE, whether or not anyone believes in such things, deals with experiences that the person in question relays afterwards and absolutely could not have known according to all that we know (except for the possibility that NDEs are indeed evidence of a continuing consciousness after physical death).

There were Chinese orphan kids around 100 years ago who got caught up in heaven, no near death, just alive, but all at the same time and they cross examined them apart from each other and they all said the same things, like they were plucking oranges for those people who took em in and were disappointed that they weren't in their pockets, cause it was so real and they also saw a kid they knew who had died earlier and the people from that orphanage hoped no other kid would die, because then the others would become jealous.

 

[Albion]

That wouldn't be an NDE, though, even if it were true.

 

[SetFree]

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2015/01/trust-peoples-near-death-experiences/#more-16480

I found the article very interesting especially in light of some of our conversations here on this site so I'm hoping Mark chimes in on this.

....

I personally don't have a problem understanding about it, since God's Word actually hints about it.

Per Acts 14, Apostle Paul was once stoned and left for dead. The disciples then stood round about him, and Paul rose up.

In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul spoke of one who was "caught up" to the third heaven, and whether in the body, or out of the body, he didn't know. Most likely Paul was speaking of himself and was being modest. And it was probably back when he was stoned and left for dead.


The Biblical Facts about our literal makeup God created us with, are these:

1. Per Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, when our flesh body dies, the "silver cord" is loosed (severed), and our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it.

2. Per Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5, he taught that if our flesh body ("earthly house") were dissolved, we still have (present tense) "a building of God" (spirit body), "eternal in the heavens." Paul was pointing back to the idea of the heavenly "spiritual body" he taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

3. Per Lord Jesus in Matthew 10:28, He said to not fear those who can kill our body (i.e., flesh body), but cannot kill our soul. That means our soul is not... part of flesh, but is of Spirit, like our spirit part. It thus reveals our spirit and soul are attached together, and separate from our flesh body at flesh death.

4. Per Hebrews 4:12, God created us with 3 parts -- a spirit, and a soul, and bones and marrow put for the flesh body.

5. Per Lord Jesus in John 3:6, He said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. By that Lord Jesus defined two... separate and distinct dimensions of existence, one is this earthly dimension, and the other is the Heavenly dimension of Spirit. Our flesh body is not... of that dimension of Spirit, as Lord Jesus showed.


Those above Bible Scripture facts are why I have no problem with the idea of NDE's. It actually fits what God's Word teaches about the different parts of how He created us. The fact that some lie about having an NDE still is irrelevant. Some obviously are not... lying about it (like Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 12).

I like the following witness by the western actor Clint Walker. I believe him:

 

[Edward429451]

Do you believe that near-death experiences are real, Messy? Does God allow humans to see heaven and then return to their bodies to tell the story?

I believe that a lot of them are real. We have the clues we need. But no one brings back proof, and that's in line with what God is doing, we must accept Him in Faith, so the only one that gets proof is the person who has the NDE.

The rest of us hear his story and still must accept it in faith or reject it as a lie. SO we "choose" what we believe in. Scripture clearly tells us to, look to the unseen (clue), but do you believe it? Do you. choose to believe it. I dunno, how long have you been praying for discernment? I have a long time.
Remember Miracle on 34th Street? The little girl said it! She said, no, seeing isn't believing...Believing is Seeing! (There's that faith again!)
do you believe the Word of God is true? Then, we are instructed to (look to the unseen) and believe in the supernatural world. Do you remember that we are to have faith?

NDE's do have a lot of the same characteristics. Howard Storm had a great testimony of his, and I find it credible so I believe him. True NDE's will never have any proof, other than they are alive again, they will never contradict scripture in any way. It helps me that I have a certain amount of background in lie detection, body language and and interrogation techniques and stuff, plus I've been praying for discernment for a loong time. So I find it rather esy to tell if someone is telling the truth or not.

God's done a lot of stuff for me. I have so many good testimonies! I watch a lot of testimonies on you tube. Some's real, some are not. But when people do not look to the unseen and choose to believe it, then I think might be inhibiting their own spiritual growth?