The gospel of Jesus Christ...

[justbyfaith]

Quote the verses that state, "the dead unbeliever is able to make a decision to believe." Quote it.

Here's what the Bible says....

Ephesians 2:1-9 You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is NOT your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Read that.

"DEAD" What can dead people do?

We were ALL once DEAD. Spiritually DEAD. Can the dead create life and give it to themselves?

GOD did it. GOD.

EVEN when we were dead. Not, "He sat back and waited for the dead to give themselves life."

"NOT your doing." Not self doing anything.

It is the GIFT of God. Not "it is your free choice."

Who can boast of "Well, I heard the alarm clock and woke up! Praise be ME! I'm going to heaven because I DID something!"

Where does it say anything about alarm clocks? Where does it say anything about the dead CAN decide?




Another verse:

Romans 8:7, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."

Before we are flesh AND SPIRIT, we are just flesh. The spirit is DEAD. So just flesh. And can it submit to God? Well, it says "cannot."

Here, you are speaking of the inability of the non-believer to receive Christ on His own.

I do not dispute that.

But I say that this inability is overcome when the Father draws a man to Christ (John 6:44);

Not to the extent that He cannot but come to Christ;

But to the extent that He becomes able to make a free will decision to either receive or reject Christ.

For, where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17);

And therefore, when He draws a man to Christ, the man is given free will in that instance.

He is not forced to receive Christ; so that the only thing he can do is receive Christ;

But his will is set free so that he can make a decision to receive or reject Christ that is unhindered by the flesh or the demonic.

 

[justbyfaith]

justbyfaith said:
we save ourselves.

There's your heresy.

It's why you must deny what Scripture says
It's why you must deny the Creeds.
It's why you deny the Gospel
It's why you object to the very core, the central affirmation of Christianity.
It's why you must ignore all the Scriptures we've suggested to you.

You've made yourself clear.

No, it is not heresy; but you judged it to be heresy without even looking up the Bible verse.

Here it is.

Act 2:40, And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Salvation all hinges on one pretty simple but very, very critical question (all eternity hinges on it):
WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely wrapped up in Jesus. Alone. Salvation is the work of Jesus, the accomplishment of Jesus, something Jesus does. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. Not in whole. Not in part. Not now. Not ever. You may have some other role in some other matter (Christian living, for example), but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus - not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. In YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR decisions. Your surrendering. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. As you claim. YOU did the thing that's needed to be saved.


@justbyfaith, you've given the answer "me." "We save ourselves." You TRIED to say this in a way to SOUND Christian, to give Jesus some credit for something, just not your salvation. YOU did the thing that results in salvation. YOU did it. You are going to heaven ultimately because of what YOU did. YOU can pat yourself on the back and boast of what YOU did (how thankful God must be; praise be YOU).

Since Jesus shed His blood for me I would say that Jesus is the Saviour. However, I must appropriate that blood through faith. Romans 5:2 says that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand.

Clearly, in Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and in Acts 2:38-39, there is something for us to do that is prescribed as the means of obtaining salvation. This cannot be disputed.

It's deceptive and perhaps just plain lying to claim "Jesus is my Savior" if you don't actually believe or affirm that, if you RATHER hold that Jesus did NOT save you (or anyone else for that matter), you saved yourself by you supplying the very thing that means you are saved. That means He is NOT the Savior - of you or anyone. He might RATHER be the possibility maker, the door opener, the teacher, the inspiration, the helper - anything BUT the Savior.

Of course Jesus is the One who supplied His precious shed blood in order that I might be forgiven and redeemed. But I had to appropriate that blood by faith.

There are really just two places to look: To the mirror OR to the Cross. There are really only two religions in the world: Trusting in Christ or trusting in self. When we stop looking to the perfect, divine CHRIST and instead look in the mirror to the sinful, flawed, limited SELF – either uncertainty and fear result (as we realize how lacking we are) OR pride/boasting results if we conclude the guy in the mirror in one awesome dude who saved himself. Most lacked the ego for the second – but then there's you.

The Bible is in fact a mirror to which we look in order to gauge whether or not we are saved; and by the law of God is the knowledge of sin. When we look into the perfect law of liberty, we can determine whether or not we continue to be sinners in need of a Saviour. As the song goes, "What's going on inside of me? I despise my own behaviour...this only serves to confirm my suspicion...that I'm still a man in need of the Saviour."

If we are truly redeemed then we are no longer sinners (1 John 3:9). You can also read my thread on 1 John 1:8 and entire sanctification to learn more (will post a link shortly).

1 John 1:8 and the doctrine of entire sanctification.

1Jo 1:8, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Notice it does not say, "If we say that we do no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us". If that were the case, it would be in contradiction to 1 John 3:4-9. But it (interpretation #1) is...

christianityhaven.com

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus' own command cannot be in error. Peter's comment, however, doesn't appear to be a similar formula but rather a reference to the commission given to him and the other Apostles by Christ himself.

So, in baptizing them in Jesus' Name, was he being obedient or disobedient?

 

[justbyfaith]

The above, however, does not refer to Baptism or a Baptismal formula. Quite obviously, it was Jesus who was and is the Savior. I don't know very many people who would deny that truth.

Compare it to Acts 2:38 and you find that it refers to the baptismal formula in that verse.

If you understand that baptism has the power to save (1 Peter 3:20-21, Ezekiel 36:25-27, Romans 6:3-5, Colossians 2:12, Luke 7:29-30, etc.), then you should understand from Acts 4:10-12 that it is only baptism in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth that will save.

 

[justbyfaith]

Justbyfaith stated that "we save ourselves." Thus, denying that Jesus is the Savior. Explains a LOT of what he posts.

And again, you are ignoring the scripture involved.

Act 2:40, And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Although, in this scripture, you are commanded to save yourselves, it does not mean that Jesus isn't the Saviour or that we are saved by anything but the shed blood of Christ.

Without His blood being shed, we would not be saved. His work in regenerating us is indispensable.

However, He does not perform that work in us against our will.

Jesus is a gentleman (Revelation 3:20, 22:17).

So, there is a sense in which we do save ourselves when we avail ourselves of what Jesus did for us on the Cross, appropriating His blood by faith.

Jesus Christ does all the saving. He shed His blood. He does all the work of regeneration.

He just won't do it without our permission.

Because when we receive Him, we must not only receive Him as Saviour but as Lord.

If He forced us to be His subjects, He wouldn't be a very good King.

Psa 110:3, Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

 

[Albion]

Compare it to Acts 2:38 and you find that it refers to the baptismal formula in that verse.

I did. And it doesn't.

 

[justbyfaith]

I did. And it doesn't.

However, I would suggest that you read and heed Hebrews 3:7-8, 3:15, and 4:7.

 

[Josiah]

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

@justbyfaith Perhaps you just ignored the question I asked. Again (for at least the third time), the question for you is: "Where does the Bible state, "the dead unbeliever is able to make a decision to believe." Where is the verse that states what you do?" Clearly, obviously, Ephesians 5:14 doesn't state that. Obviously. As everyone can see. As everyone knows.

the fact that God gives a command means that the person is able to obey the command.

I see. So when the Bible states, "Be holy just as God is holy" you think the dead, unregenerate, unbelieving, athistic enemy of God can do that. I see.... then your idea that each saves self becomes reasonable, no need for a Savior, no need for forgiveness - just everyone do as commanded, each can do it. And when the Bible says "Go and make disciples of all people" you hold that every human - all 7.8 billion of them, each one of them can make a disciples of every other 7.8 billion humans... the "all people." Great. Go do that. Because your apologetic is that if God tells a dead person to do something, ergo they can do it (I assume that applies to living people, too - but that's another issue, we're not discussing what CHRISTIANS can and cannot do). You might want to think about your absurd claim.



Here's what the Bible says....

Ephesians 2:1-9

You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


"DEAD" What can dead people do?

We were ALL once DEAD. Spiritually DEAD.

GOD did it. GOD.

EVEN when we were dead. Not, "He sat back and waited for the dead to give themselves life."

"NOT your doing." Not self doing anything.

It is the GIFT of God. Not "it is your free choice."

Who can boast of "Well, I heard the alarm clock and woke up! Praise be ME! I'm going to heaven because I DID something!"



@justbyfaith

we save ourselves ... Jesus Christ does all the saving.

When you make up your mind, let us know.

Since you insist that Jesus does 100% of the saving, how much of that 100% does the dead unbeliever contribute? For BOTH to be praised for their individual contributions, neither can be 100%. Obviously. Why does this allude you?

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith Perhaps you just ignored the question I asked. Again (for at least the third time), the question for you is: "Where does the Bible state, "the dead unbeliever is able to make a decision to believe." Where is the verse that states what you do?" Clearly, obviously, Ephesians doesn't state that. As everyone can see. As everyone knows.

Perhaps not, in the exact words that you are looking for. But it does say it. As everyone can see. And as everyone knows.

 

[justbyfaith]

I see. So when the Bible states, "Be holy just as God is holy" you think the dead, unregenerate, unbelieving, athistic enemy of God can do that. I see.... then your idea that each saves self becomes reasonable, no need for a Savior, no need for forgiveness - just everyone do as commanded, each can do it. And when the Bible says "Go and make disciples of all people" you hold that every unbeliever - all 7.8 billion of them, each one of them can make a discisple of every other 7.8 billion... the "all people." Great. Go do that. Because your apologetic is that if God tells a dead person to do something, ergo they can do it (I assume that applies to living people, too - but that's another issue, we're not discussing what CHRISTIANS can and cannot do). You might want to think about your absurd claim.

I believe that when God says to anyone "Be holy as I am holy" that He will with that give the person an opportunity to receive the holiness of God in enabling them to receive the Holy Spirit as a free gift from the hand of the Lord.

Here's what the Bible says....

Ephesians 2:1-9

You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


"DEAD" What can dead people do?

We were ALL once DEAD. Spiritually DEAD.

GOD did it. GOD.

EVEN when we were dead. Not, "He sat back and waited for the dead to give themselves life."

"NOT your doing." Not self doing anything.

It is the GIFT of God. Not "it is your free choice."

Who can boast of "Well, I heard the alarm clock and woke up! Praise be ME! I'm going to heaven because I DID something!"

Yes, it is the gift of God. If you are going to be the recipient of a gift, you must receive it.

It is a free choice.

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

My exhortation to you is,

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

When you make up your mind, let us know.

I have explained how the apparent contradiction is reconciled.

 

[Josiah]

I believe that when God says to anyone "Be holy as I am holy" thaat He will with that give the person an opportunity to receive the holiness of God in enabling them to receive the Holy Spirit as a free gift from the hand of the Lord

@justbyfaith But now you simply change the whole discussion to a different point (it's called "the shell game" in debate and it's disallowed). Now you want to discuss what a BELIEVER can do, what a CHRISTIAN can do, what one WITH faith and live and the Holy Spirit can do. That's not the issue. But even here you indicate your claim is absurd, even you realized that YOU (a Christian) CANNOT make disciples of all 7.8 billion people ("all people"), even you CANNOT do as God commands. Your premise is wrong.

Yes, it is the gift of God. If you are going to be the recipient of a gift, you must receive it.

Again, that's not the issue. Receiving a gift doesn't mean we took it. Or can.

The greatest physical gift God gave me was life... I didn't TAKE it. I didn't first give God permission to bless me with this.

NEVER does the Bible state, "The dead, unbelieving, atheistic enemy of God CAN CHOOSE to have faith, it's their free choice, each of them can do it." Here's what the Bible states, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Faith is "the gift of God." And this is "not because of works" - we don't do anything. Nothing here about "but only if the dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God first gives God permission."

It is a free choice.

Quote the verse that states, "Saving faith is a free choice every dead, spiritually lifeless, atheistic, enemy of God can make - if they give God permission to offer it to them."


Your position is that Jesus does 100% of saving. But that the dead also contribute to their salvation - they all CAN do it, DO do it (but only if they give God permission). Okay. If Jesus does 100%, what percent does the dead contribute so that he/she also saves? One of your two claims MUST be wrong. Either Jesus does NOT do 100% or the dead do not gain their own salvation....

But as you explain things, it seems Jesus does 0% of salvation, He doesn't actually save anything or anyone, He ONLY offers it. The dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God saves himself by first giving God permission to offer this to him and then by freely accepting it. As you seem to explain it, the one who actually DID what means they are alive, saved, forgiven and going to heaven is because of what the DEAD did. Jesus offering it saves no one, thus He saves no one, thus He's not the Savior - of anyone. It's the DEAD giving Him permission to offer it and then ripping it away from Him that means that Dead one now has faith, is alive and saved and heaven bound. Jesus 0% Dead 100%. Maybe you need to think that through.



.

 

[justbyfaith]

Pouring water on your own head does nothing.

Lees

Pouring water on your own head does nothing.

Where in Scripture did anyone baptize themeselves? No where.

Lees

Where in Scripture did anyone baptize themselves?

Lees

Elijah did not baptize Naaman the Syrian but told him to dip in the Jordan river seven times.

Naaman baptized himself and was cured of his leprosy.

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith But now you simply change the whole discussion to a different point (it's called "the shell game" in debate and it's disallowed). Now you want to discuss what a BELIEVER can do, what a CHRISTIAN can do, what one WITH faith and live and the Holy Spirit can do. That's not the issue. But even here you indicate your claim is absurd, even you realized that YOU (a Christian) CANNOT make disciples of all 7.8 billion people ("all people"), even you CANNOT do as God commands. Your premise is wrong.

God gave that great commission to the entire church; not to us individually as Christians.

There will come a time when the gospel will be published among all nations and the church will have at that time fulfilled its commission to evangelize the world.

Again, that's not the issue. Receiving a gift doesn't mean we took it. Or can.

The greatest <snip> gift God gave me was life... I didn't TAKE it. I didn't first give God permission to bless me with this.

Then you didn't receive it and therefore do not have it.

NEVER does the Bible state, "The dead, unbelieving, atheistic enemy of God CAN CHOOSE to have faith, it's their free choice, each of them can do it." Here's what the Bible states, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Faith is "the gift of God." And this is "not because of works" - we don't do anything. Nothing here about "but only if the dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God first gives God permission."

God does not force the issue when He draws a man to Christ. For He draws us by the power of the Holy Spirit...and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17).

Quote the verse that states, "Saving faith is a free choice every dead, spiritually lifeless, atheistic, enemy of God can make - if they give God permission to offer it to them."

Of course we do not give God permission to offer it to us...He offers it to us whether we give Him permission or not.

But He will not come into our hearts and give us the power to become children of God unless we receive Him.

Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Josiah]

God gave that great commission to the entire church

@justbyfaith

You are trying to run from your claim. You said that the Dead are able to do whatever God commands. This you apply to EVERY dead, spiritually lifeless, atheist enemy of God. If God commands such to do something, THEREFORE he can do it. That's the claim you made.

You supplied NOT ONE VERSE that states that. So you tried to change it to a CHRISTIAN can do everything God commands. But again - no Scripture that says that, and you realized that nope - not even you can do everything God commands. Now you want to switch it to EVERY CHRISTIAN COLLECTIVELY. Hahaha. The issue is what a DEAD, SPIRITUALLY LIFELESS, ATHEISTIC, UNBELIEVER can do. Can he do what you claim, WHATEVER and EVERYTHING God commands?

Come on, clearly you realize your premise is not only unbiblical but absurd. Move on. The verse you quoted does nothing to support your remarkable claims.

Then you didn't receive it and therefore do not have it

Come on....

I said that God's greatest physical/earthly gift to me is life. Granted to me say 9 months before my birth (don't try to sidetrack things with that). GAVE. GIFT. Did I decide to receive life? Could I? Come on.... realize, your premise is obviously wrong. Not only clearly unbiblical but completely illogical. Gifts do NOT require that we have the ability to chose or accept it. Have you heard of grace? Of mercy? Of blessing?

But He will not come into our hearts and give us the power to become children of God unless we receive Him.

Of course, the Bible never remotely says that. BUT even if it did, that does not prove that the DEAD receive him by their own choice and volition. It would not at all indicate that each DEAD unbeliever FREELY CHOOSES Jesus, he performs a word (deciding) and thus saves himself. When I came to physical life, I received that gift. I didn't ask for it. I didn't choose it. I did NOTHING. God gave. God blessed. It's called grace.


Here's what the Bible says....

Ephesians 2:1-9 You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.




.

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith

You are trying to run from your claim. You said that the Dead are able to do whatever God commands. This you apply to EVERY dead, spiritually lifeless, atheist enemy of God. If God commands such to do something, THEREFORE he can do it. That's the claim you made.

You supplied NOT ONE VERSE that states that. So you tried to change it to a CHRISTIAN can do everything God commands. But again - no Scripture that says that, and you realized that nope - not even you can do everything God commands. Now you want to switch it to EVERY CHRISTIAN COLLECTIVELY. Hahaha. The issue is what a DEAD, SPIRITUALLY LIFELESS, ATHEISTIC, UNBELIEVER can do. Can he do what you claim, WHATEVER and EVERYTHING God commands?

Come on, clearly you realize your premise is not only unbiblical but absurd. Move on. The verse you quoted does nothing to support your remarkable claims.

I certainly don't contend that an unbeliever has any power to receive Christ apart from being drawn to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

If God commands you, personally to do something, He will give you the power to do it.

Otherwise He is being unfair in that He is requiring something of you that you are incapable of doing.

Come on....

I said that God's greatest physical/earthly gift to me is life. Granted to me say 9 months before my birth (don't try to sidetrack things with that). GAVE. GIFT. Did I decide to receive life? Could I? Come on.... realize, your premise is obviously wrong. Not only clearly unbiblical but completely illogical. Gifts do NOT require that we have the ability to chose or accept it. Have you heard of grace? Of mercy? Of blessing?

Yes, in order to be the recipient of a gift, we must personally receive it.

Physical life is apparently different than spiritual life, if physical life is not RECEIVED as a gift...

Because spiritual life must be RECEIVED.

Of course, the Bible never remotely says that.

Sure it does.

In John 1:12.

Please note that it is a first rule of hermeneutics that the immediate context of a scripture will never truly nullify the plain meaning of that scripture.

So, if you are going to try and make John 1:13 contradict John 1:12, you need to realize that John 1:12 speaks plainly of the fact that we must receive Christ regardless of what is said afterward in John 1:13.

BUT even if it did, that does not prove that the DEAD receive him by their own choice and volition. It would not at all indicate that each DEAD unbeliever FREELY CHOOSES Jesus, he performs a word (deciding) and thus saves himself. When I came to physical life, I received that gift. I didn't ask for it. I didn't choose it. I did NOTHING. God gave. God blessed. It's called grace.


Here's what the Bible says....

Ephesians 2:1-9 You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Again, Ephesians 5:14 teaches us that those who are dead in their trespasses and sins are actually SLEEPING...and when they come alive, the reality is that they are WOKEN OUT OF SLEEP.

Someone who is sleeping can choose to wake up completely if they are given a little bit of help so that they wake up part of the way.

And again, when we are drawn to Christ, it is not the same thing as regeneration...otherwise all who are drawn to Christ are given to Christ...and if that be the case, Universalism is the teaching (which is heresy); since all are drawn to Christ according to John 12:32.

But when we are drawn to Christ, our will is set free so that we can make a free will decision either to receive or reject Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

When you make up your mind, let us know.

Since you insist that Jesus does 100% of the saving, how much of that 100% does the dead unbeliever contribute? For BOTH to be praised for their individual contributions, neither can be 100%. Obviously. Why does this allude you?

That should be spelled "elude".

The believer contributes nothing except his own surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ...that is, agreement with the Lord that he is a sinner and needs to change his own ways.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your position is that Jesus does 100% of saving. But that the dead also contribute to their salvation - they all CAN do it, DO do it (but only if they give God permission). Okay. If Jesus does 100%, what percent does the dead contribute so that he/she also saves? One of your two claims MUST be wrong. Either Jesus does NOT do 100% or the dead do not gain their own salvation....

But as you explain things, it seems Jesus does 0% of salvation, He doesn't actually save anything or anyone, He ONLY offers it. The dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God saves himself by first giving God permission to offer this to him and then by freely accepting it. As you seem to explain it, the one who actually DID what means they are alive, saved, forgiven and going to heaven is because of what the DEAD did. Jesus offering it saves no one, thus He saves no one, thus He's not the Savior - of anyone. It's the DEAD giving Him permission to offer it and then ripping it away from Him that means that Dead one now has faith, is alive and saved and heaven bound. Jesus 0% Dead 100%. Maybe you need to think that through.

Again, it is what the sleeping did as he is woken partially out of sleep (for those who are dead in trespasses and sins, are sleeping, Ephesians 5:14).

It is kind of like when the man in Mark 9 says to Jesus, "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."

The man was partially woken out of sleep and believed enough to ask Jesus to grant him a measure of faith.

The faith that Jesus would give him would be the gift of God; given as the result of him ASKING.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are trying to run from your claim. You said that the Dead are able to do whatever God commands. This you apply to EVERY dead, spiritually lifeless, atheist enemy of God. If God commands such to do something, THEREFORE he can do it. That's the claim you made.

You supplied NOT ONE VERSE that states that.

I do not need a scripture that states that. It is a first truth that is self-evident as being truth; that God would never command us to do anything unless we are able to do it; because God is not unfair. Therefore, if we were unable to do it before the command, He enables us to do it in that He now commands us to do it. In this, the person who is dead in trespasses and sins is partially woken up so that they can make a decision whether to wake up entirely or else hit the snooze button and drift back off into the sleep of spiritual death.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you're Oneness then you do not agree with the Trinity. I'm going to change your profile to reflect that and move this thread to the appropriate forum.

If the fact that I have been baptized in Jesus' Name means that I don't agree with the Trinity, then there must be something about such a baptism that makes a person disagree with the Trinity.

Of course the Holy Ghost is absolutely promised to those who repent and are baptized in Jesus' Name for the remission of sins.

Even in this, I do not deny the Trinity.

But if you want to insist that I do,

I hope that you will realize that the thing that sets me apart from you is the fact that I have done what it takes to receive the Holy Ghost (in that I have fulfilled the condition of the promise in Acts 2:38-39).