The gospel of Jesus Christ...

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith


I'm 100% with you ... until this point.
Your insistence of what the DEAD, unbelieving, atheistic, fallen, sinful, unregenerate person CAN DO.

This video is 11 minutes long but makes the point well that Jesus is the Savior. Not self. Self doesn't save self by "deciding."

Then, if you care what Scripture (and centuries of Christianity) says, you can also view this one (it's 6 minutes long)...

@justbyfaith the Bible specifically says that without faith, unregenerate people are spiritually DEAD. D-E-A-D. Now, what can dead people to? Not much. They CANNOT change that. The Bible says they CANNOT believe or choose or DO anything spiritual. Can GOD change that? Can God give life, faith, salvation? Can GOD save us? The Bible says yes.... indeed only HE can. So, instead of people patting themselves on the back for doing something they didn't could not and did not do... praising themselves for being the reason they are spiritually alive and justified... it is the point of Scripture and Christianity to praise JESUS, to insist the HE saved us (not just made it possible for us to save ourselves by some action we did when we were dead but He actually did it), to affirm that Jesus actually IS the Savior - the one who actually saves. Christianity lifts high the Cross. Christianity affirms that it is God who saves, not self.


Blessings!

Josiah.

Hi. I would say to this that in John 6:44, it teaches that we are enabled to receive Christ when God the Father draws us to Christ...

That the inability that you are speaking of is dealt with to a certain extent as the Holy Spirit draws us.

Being drawn is not being regenerated...and being drawn does not guarantee being given to Christ...

But when we are drawn to Christ, we are enabled to make a free will decision either to receive or reject Christ (for where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom, 2 Corinthians 3:17) and when we are drawn we are drawn by the Spirit of the Lord (John 4:23-24, 6:44).

So, when the Spirit draws us, He is not going to force a decision to receive Christ.

Jesus is a gentleman (Revelation 3:20).

Ephesians 5:14 speaks of the fact that those who are spiritually dead are actually "sleeping"...

When the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ, it is like an alarm going off and we can then proceed to get up and go about our day (become alive spiritually) or else hit the snooze button and return to the sleep of spiritual death.

 

[justbyfaith]

You haven't produced any Scripture showing a person can baptize themselves.

Lees

The bible does not give instruction for us to pour water over our own head for baptism.

That's very true. What's more, it clearly teaches us that Jesus had someone else baptize Him and, later, he commanded his chosen Apostles to do the baptizing of people who would hear the Gospel from them and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

You can all make it harder for yourselves to enter into the kingdom (receiving remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost according to the promise of Acts 2:38-39).

If you don't believe that baptizing yourself (while if prayer is involved, it would be God the Father who does the baptizing) is valid, then you need to find a Oneness minister and have them baptize you specifically "in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins".

Or, a minister who is not Oneness who will baptize you in the Name rather than in titles.

Because it is the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth that saves (Acts 4:10-12) in baptism (1 Peter 3:20-21).

 

[Albion]

You can all make it harder for yourselves to enter into the kingdom (receiving remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost according to the promise of Acts 2:38-39).

If you don't believe that baptizing yourself (while if prayer is involved, it would be God the Father who does the baptizing) is valid, then you need to find a Oneness minister and have them baptize you specifically "in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins".

Or, a minister who is not Oneness who will baptize you in the Name rather than in titles.

I've already been baptized using the Scriptural formula (Matthew 28:19).

 

[justbyfaith]

I've already been baptized using the Scriptural formula (Matthew 28:19).

So, all you would have to do at this point is recognize the singular NAME that you were baptized in according to that formula.

Mat 28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

If you compare Matthew 28:19 to Acts 2:38, I believe that you will see that that name is "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"

But if you do not recognize the NAME (but only the titles), then your baptism did not save you (Acts 4:10-12);

While if you do recognize the NAME, your baptism doth also now save you (1 Peter 3:20-21)

 

[Albion]

So, all you would have to do at this point is recognize the singular NAME that you were baptized in according to that formula.

Mat 28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

I regret (but am not surprised) that you do not understand the wording here. Let the Dictionary definition help you--
................................................................................................................................

"in the name of​

---

By the authority of, as in Open up, in the name of the law!"

...............................................................................................................................

 

[Josiah]

Hi. I would say to this that in John 6:44

Right. It (and so many other Scriptures) contradicts your whole point.

You are fine until in your post you get into all that stuff about what the DEAD, spiritually void and lifeless, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God "CAN DO."

You write,

"What you can do is, after having prayed a prayer of salvation in your own words, you can ask the Father to baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (so that He is the One doing the baptizing) as you pour the water over your own head.

You can ask Him to grant you remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost; and also cleanse you from all your filthiness and idols and give you a new heart and a new spirit; taking the stony heart out of your flesh and giving you an heart of flesh; and that He might cause you to walk in His statutes and in His judgments.

It certainly won't hurt you to do all of these things that, in holy scripture, are prescribed as means of obtaining salvation.

Perhaps you didn't mean what you posted (you certainly can indicate that you unintentionally misspoke). I hope that's the case.

But Scripture does NOT support that the unbeliever "can do" anything to "obtain salvation." Salvation is the gift of God, something Jesus does.

But when we are drawn to Christ, we are enabled to make a free will decision either to receive or rejec Christ (for where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom, 2 Corinthians 3:17) and when we are drawn we are drawn by the Spirit of the Lord (John 4:23-24, 6:44).

Then it's GOD who can, not the dead unbeliever who can.

And your language, "we are enabled...." where does Scripture say that? 2 Corinthians 3:17 says nothing about free will or obtaining salvation. And it specifically is speaking of one who believes, one who has faith. It's not speaking about the dead, atheistic, lifeless, void of God, enemy of God having free will to "decide for Jesus."

So, when the Spirit draws us, He is not going to force a decision to receive Christ.

Odd.... Where does the Bible speak of FORCE?

When God gave you physical life, did He FORCE it on you? Did you "decide" to come to life? Funny how you would understand God this way.

When the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ, it is like an alarm going off and we can then proceed to get up and go about our day (become alive spiritually) or else hit the snooze button and return to the sleep of spiritual death.

Where in the world does Scripture state this? It in fact repeatedly states the EXACT OPPOSITE of this.

And of course, this means Jesus isn't the Savior... He doesn't save anyone... He's an alarm clock. WE save ourselves by giving ourselves life OR giving ourselves death, we give ourselves salvation or damnation. Wow.

 

[justbyfaith]

I regret (but am not surprised) that you do not understand the wording here. Let the Dictionary definition help you--
................................................................................................................................

"in the name of​

---

By the authority of, as in Open up, in the name of the law!"

...............................................................................................................................

Nice evasion...

but it won't help you on the day of judgment.

Act 4:10, Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11, This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12, Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I would point out that it is scripture that interprets scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13); and not necessarily the dictionary.

 

[justbyfaith]

It (and so many other Scriptures) contradicts your whole point

No; it does not.

If it does then you are certainly capable of showing how it contradicts my point.

I won't be holding my breath.

 

[Josiah]

No; it does not.

Yes. Including the Scripture you quoted.

@justbyfaith

Where does the Bible state, "The dead unbeliever can choose to believe?" "The dead unbeliever can freely choose to accept Christ as the Savior or not." "He or she has that ability" Where?

Here's what the Bible says....

Ephesians 2:1-9

You were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— 6 God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


"DEAD" What can dead people do?

We were ALL once DEAD. Spiritually DEAD.

GOD did it. GOD.

EVEN when we were dead. Not, "He sat back and waited for the dead to give themselves life."

"NOT your doing." Not self doing anything.

It is the GIFT of God. Not "it is your free choice."

Who can boast of "Well, I heard the alarm clock and woke up! Praise be ME! I'm going to heaven because I DID something!"


Romans 8:7

"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."

Before we are flesh AND SPIRIT, we are just flesh. The spirit is DEAD. So just flesh. And can it submit to God? Well, it says "cannot."

And SO much more... indeed ALL of Scripture.

Can You Make a Decision for Christ? - Wolfmueller

“Have you made a decision for Christ?” One often hears this question from radio and television preachers, or even from our friends and family. “Have you invited Jesus into...

wolfmueller.co

Now, if you can present Scriptures that state, "Salvation is the result of a free decision the dead unbeliever makes for himself." Then post it and we can discuss it.



.

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith

Where does the Bible state, "The dead unbeliever can choose to believe?" "The dead unbeliever can freely choose to accept Christ as the Savior or not." "He or she has that ability" Where?

Now, if you can present Scriptures that state, "Salvation is the result of a free decision the dead unbeliever makes for himself." Then post it and we can discuss it.

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Here, it becomes clear that those who are dead in their trespasses and sins are, in effect, sleeping.

When God draws a believer to Christ (John 6:44), it is like He sets off an alarm to wake up the one who is dead or sleeping.

That person will be jarred to the point of being able to make a decision.

They can either hit the snooze button and return to the sleep of spiritual death or else they can wake up and go about their day (in which case they become spiritually alive).

Notice that they are commanded to "awake" and "arise from the dead"!

They therefore have the ability to awake and arise from the dead, at such a time that the Spirit draws them to Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Perhaps you didn't mean what you posted (you certainly can indicate that you unintentionally misspoke). I hope that's the case.

But Scripture does NOT support that the unbeliever "can do" anything to "obtain salvation." Salvation is the gift of God, something Jesus does.

See Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39; all of which are biblical prescriptions given as the means by which we obtain salvation.

And your language, "we are enabled...." where does Scripture say that?

John 6:44.

2 Corinthians 3:17 says nothing about free will or obtaining salvation.

Sure it does. But I believe that you are in denial of the truth.

And it specifically is speaking of one who believes, one who has faith. It's not speaking about the dead, atheistic, lifeless, void of God, enemy of God having free will to "decide for Jesus."

To be drawn to Christ is not the same thing as being regenerated. If it were, then all who are drawn to Christ would be given to Christ. And if that were the case, all would be given to Christ (Universalism, heresy) since the Bible teaches (John 12:32) that all are drawn to Christ.

Odd.... Where does the Bible speak of FORCE?

When God gave you physical life, did He FORCE it on you? Did you "decide" to come to life? Funny how you would understand God this way.

It says that the Antichrist will honour a "god of forces" in Daniel.

I decided to receive Jesus and He imparted life to me as the result; coming into my heart and shedding abroad His love in my heart.

Where in the world does Scripture state this?

John 6:44, Ephesians 5:14.

It in fact repeatedly states the EXACT OPPOSITE of this.

Where? I think that you are misinterpreting the scriptures if you think that they say that.

And of course, this means Jesus isn't the Savior... He doesn't save anyone... He's an alarm clock. WE save ourselves by giving ourselves life OR giving ourselves death, we give ourselves salvation or damnation. Wow.

Yes, see Acts 2:40.

There is a sense in which we save ourselves.

Of course, God does the work of regeneration.

But He doesn't do it against our will.

Jesus is a gentleman (Revelation 3:20, 22:17).

 

[justbyfaith]

I've already been baptized using the Scriptural formula (Matthew 28:19).

Was Peter being disobedient to the scriptural formula when he baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, in Acts 2:38?

Or, was he being obedient; so that it can be said that the scriptural formula is actually Acts 2:38?

 

[justbyfaith]

Concerning the doctrines of Calvinism, I believe that these messages of Finney, taken at face value on their own merit (whatever else you may think of him) do have the potential to refute Calvinistic doctrine in your thinking.

Sinners Bound to Change Their Own Hearts by Charles G. Finney

www.gospeltruth.net

HOW TO CHANGE YOUR HEART by Charles G. Finney

www.gospeltruth.net

 

[justbyfaith]

*

 

[Josiah]

Where does the Bible state, "The dead unbeliever can choose to believe?" "The dead unbeliever can freely choose to accept Christ as the Savior or not." "He or she has that ability" Where?

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

@justbyfaith

Did you read this verse that you quoted? Where does it state, " "The dead unbeliever can choose to believe?" "The dead unbeliever can freely choose to accept Christ as the Savior or not." "He or she has that ability, they CAN do it." Where?

That person will be jarred to the point of being able to make a decision.

Quote the verses that state, "the dead unbeliever is able to make a decision to believe." Quote it.

Here's what the Bible says....

Ephesians 2:1-9 You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is NOT your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Read that.

"DEAD" What can dead people do?

We were ALL once DEAD. Spiritually DEAD. Can the dead create life and give it to themselves?

GOD did it. GOD.

EVEN when we were dead. Not, "He sat back and waited for the dead to give themselves life."

"NOT your doing." Not self doing anything.

It is the GIFT of God. Not "it is your free choice."

Who can boast of "Well, I heard the alarm clock and woke up! Praise be ME! I'm going to heaven because I DID something!"

Where does it say anything about alarm clocks? Where does it say anything about the dead CAN decide?




Another verse:

Romans 8:7, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."

Before we are flesh AND SPIRIT, we are just flesh. The spirit is DEAD. So just flesh. And can it submit to God? Well, it says "cannot."




.

 

[Josiah]

@justbyfaith
@Albion
@Lamb
@Origen


Note to all the Christians here at CH....

we save ourselves.

There's your heresy.

It's why you must deny what Scripture says
It's why you must deny the Creeds.
It's why you deny the Gospel
It's why you object to the very core, the central affirmation of Christianity.
It's why you must ignore all the Scriptures we've suggested to you.

You've made yourself clear.




@justbyfaith

Salvation all hinges on one pretty simple but very, very critical question (all eternity hinges on it):
WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely wrapped up in Jesus. Alone. Salvation is the work of Jesus, the accomplishment of Jesus, something Jesus does. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. Not in whole. Not in part. Not now. Not ever. You may have some other role in some other matter (Christian living, for example), but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus - not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. In YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR decisions. Your surrendering. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. As you claim. YOU did the thing that's needed to be saved.


@justbyfaith, you've given the answer "me." "We save ourselves." You TRIED to say this in a way to SOUND Christian, to give Jesus some credit for something, just not your salvation. YOU did the thing that results in salvation. YOU did it. You are going to heaven ultimately because of what YOU did. YOU can pat yourself on the back and boast of what YOU did (how thankful God must be; praise be YOU).


It's deceptive and perhaps just plain lying to claim "Jesus is my Savior" if you don't actually believe or affirm that, if you RATHER hold that Jesus did NOT save you (or anyone else for that matter), you saved yourself by you supplying the very thing that means you are saved. That means He is NOT the Savior - of you or anyone. He might RATHER be the possibility maker, the door opener, the teacher, the inspiration, the helper - anything BUT the Savior.


There are really just two places to look: To the mirror OR to the Cross. There are really only two religions in the world: Trusting in Christ or trusting in self. When we stop looking to the perfect, divine CHRIST and instead look in the mirror to the sinful, flawed, limited SELF – either uncertainty and fear result (as we realize how lacking we are) OR pride/boasting results if we conclude the guy in the mirror in one awesome dude who saved himself. Most lacked the ego for the second – but then there's you.



Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

Was Peter being disobedient to the scriptural formula when he baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, in Acts 2:38?

Or, was he being obedient; so that it can be said that the scriptural formula is actually Acts 2:38?

Jesus' own command cannot be in error. Peter's comment, however, doesn't appear to be a similar formula but rather a reference to the commission given to him and the other Apostles by Christ himself.

 

[Albion]

Act 4:10, Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11, This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12, Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I would point out that it is scripture that interprets scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13); and not necessarily the dictionary.

The above, however, does not refer to Baptism or a Baptismal formula. Quite obviously, it was Jesus who was and is the Savior. I don't know very many people who would deny that truth.

 

[Josiah]

Quite obviously, it was Jesus who was and is the Savior. I don't know very many people who would deny that truth.

Justbyfaith stated that "we save ourselves." Thus, denying that Jesus is the Savior. Explains a LOT of what he posts.


.

 

[justbyfaith]

Quote the verses that state, "the dead unbeliever is able to make a decision to believe." Quote it.

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

I believe that this verse suffices; since the fact that God gives a command means that the person is able to obey the command. If they were not able to obey it before, then they become able in that God has commanded them.