Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[prism]

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

That world in 2 Cor 5:19 is a unbelieving world that is discharged of all its iniquities and transgressions, or trespasses against God.

'In Christ' means 'in time' due to the Incarnation. No one is discharged from their iniquities or justified until Christ came in the flesh and even then faith was required.

 

[brightfame52]

'In Christ' means 'in time' due to the Incarnation. No one is discharged from their iniquities or justified until Christ came in the flesh and even then faith was required.

False teaching of works, and denial of non imputation of sin 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Albion]

False teaching of works, and denial of non imputation of sin 2 Cor 5:19

Nonsense. It's a matter of time, not works.

 

[prism]

That world in 2 Cor 5:19 is a unbelieving world that is discharged of all its iniquities and transgressions, or trespasses against God.

could you reconcile this?..

John 3:18 ESV
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

V.18 of John 3 depicts unbelievers as condemned.

You are saying from 2Cor 5:19 that unbelievers are 'discharged' of all iniquities and transgressions. Please reconcile these two.

 

[brightfame52]

Nonsense. It's a matter of time, not works.

You deny the non imputation of sin there shown in 2 Cor 5:19. Those whom Christ died for have automatically forgiveness of sins because, God doesnt impute sin to them, because He charged their sins to Christ. Non imputation of sins and forgiveness of sin are one and the same,

Rom :7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[brightfame52]

could you reconcile this?..

John 3:18 ESV
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

V.18 of John 3 depicts unbelievers as condemned.

You are saying from 2Cor 5:19 that unbelievers are 'discharged' of all iniquities and transgressions. Please reconcile these two.

Your works salvation is in the fact you make faith to be a requirement in order to be Justified before God and forgiven.

 

[Josiah]

Your works salvation is in the fact you make faith to be a requirement in order to be Justified before God and forgiven.

Faith is not a condition, it's a means. And it's not OUR work, it's God's gift.

See post 1058


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[Albion]

Your works salvation is in the fact you make faith to be a requirement in order to be Justified before God and forgiven.

Many people make that same mistake. And many of them will insist that if you so much as present yourself at the front of the congregation for any reason, such as baptism or testifying, this means it's a "good work" and that it, in turn, means the person doing it believes in salvation by "works."

After all, it took putting one foot in front of the other one in order to walk to the front...and reciting the "Sinner's Prayer" gets seen to be a "good work" since it involves action, voluntarily moving one's lips!

Some will even go so far as to insist that having a thought constitutes a "work" in a theological sense.







.

 

[brightfame52]

Those whom God laid their iniquities upon Christ, not only did He lay their punishment unto Him, but the very iniquties themselves, by imputation Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

This was such a thorough laying on, so that it was said that He was made Sin 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

He became the sinner, but by Imputation, and now because of this, no matter what, those sinners stand acquitted and absolved of all sin and unrighteousness before God ! And this is before they believe and while they are yet being ungodly, because it had nothing to do with what they did or did not do, but solely upon what Christ has done for them ! 12

 

[Albion]

He became the sinner, but by Imputation, and now because of this, no matter what, those sinners stand acquitted and absolved of all sin and unrighteousness before God ! And this is before they believe and while they are yet being ungodly, because it had nothing to do with what they did or did not do, but solely upon what Christ has done for them ! 12

That mistake does appear to be one of the more prevalent areas of disagreement when it comes to these discussions of ours.

So, from here on, the best thing probably would be to find a way of explaining why the notion that says God has saved people who have no interest in him whatsoever, equally with those who have come to faith and trust in Our Lord, is nothing but an insignificant aberration in the long history of the Christian church.

To entertain the idea that this matter represents a serious division in Christianity that's akin to such controversies as Faith vs Works or Real Presence or the mode of Baptism needs to be set aside for good.

 

[brightfame52]

That mistake does appear to be one of the more prevalent areas of disagreement when it comes to these discussions of ours.

So, from here on, the best thing probably would be to find a way of explaining why the notion that says God has saved people who have no interest in him whatsoever, equally with those who have come to faith and trust in Our Lord, is nothing but an insignificant aberration in the long history of the Christian church.

To entertain the idea that this matter represents a serious division in Christianity that's akin to such controversies as Faith vs Works or Real Presence or the mode of Baptism needs to be set aside for good.

You really dont understand Gospel Truths.

 

[prism]

Your works salvation is in the fact you make faith to be a requirement in order to be Justified before God and forgiven.

So, God saves the atheist, Buddhist, Hindi etc., all without faith?

 

[brightfame52]

So, God saves the atheist, Buddhist, Hindi etc., all without faith?

Christ Justified any and everyone He died for without Faith, even while they are ungodly.

 

[Albion]

Christ Justified any and everyone He died for without Faith, even while they are ungodly.

As was noted previously, a lot depends on how the speaker defines "justified."

In Christianity, it means an act of God by which He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner’s faith in Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

As was noted previously, a lot depends on how the speaker defines "justified."

In Christianity, it means an act of God by which He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner’s faith in Christ.

Read my posts

 

[prism]

Christ Justified any and everyone He died for without Faith, even while they are ungodly.

You claim to be Reformed/Calvinist, which of the Reformed standards can I find that in? (Belgic? Westminster? Heidelberg? Dordrecht?)

 

[Josiah]

False teaching of works

Again, WRONG.

1. Faith in justification is the MEANS of apprehending it, not a CONDITION for achieving it. You are confusing condition with means. STILL.

2. The granting of faith and life IS a work of sort but it is GOD'S work. God does do things to bring about our justification. Those verses you quote about it NOT being of works is that it's not of OUR works - it doesn't mean Jesus never lifted a finger, never lived, never died, never did anything. Faith is NOT our work, it is GOD"S gift.


.

 

[Josiah]

Christ Justified any and everyone without Faith

Unbiblical.

Heresy.



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[brightfame52]

You claim to be Reformed/Calvinist, which of the Reformed standards can I find that in? (Belgic? Westminster? Heidelberg? Dordrecht?)

My claim is scripture, which you appear not to believe.

 

[Albion]

Read my posts

I have...and that's why I asked you to explain why your theory on justification is preferred over the Scriptural definition. I'll take it from your reply here that you really do not have a good reason to reject the Bible's treatment of the matter.