Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[prism]

These major translations confirm my point, it can be translated either way.

Matthew 23:23 NASB95
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Matthew 23:23 BSB
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin. But you have disregarded the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Matthew 23:23 AMP
"Woe to you, [self-righteous] scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you give a tenth (tithe) of your mint and dill and cumin [focusing on minor matters], and have neglected the weightier [more important moral and spiritual] provisions of the Law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the [primary] things you ought to have done without neglecting the others.

Matthew 23:23 ESV
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

Matthew 23:23 CSB
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, and yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law-justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These things should have been done without neglecting the others.

 

[Albion]

These major translations confirm my point, it can be translated either way.

These translations do not confirm your point and there is no reason to say that they can be translated either way.

For one thing, you are basing ;your contention on your translation of one verse, ignoring everything else said in Scripture about Faith.

For another, I can find no Bible expert/translator who agrees with your "take" on this matter. You'd think that there would be some, if it were as you are claiming. Here's what one of them DID say by way of explaining the wording (the highlighting is mine) --

"Faith - Piety toward God; confidence in him. Faith in God here means that we are to give to him what is his due; as mercy and justice mean to do to people, in all circumstances, what is right toward them. "

It is not difficult to see that what is being referred to in Matthew 23:23 (the verse you chose) is not the same as in the case of the person who has received the Holy Spirit and responds to Christ who paid the price for our sins, who acclaims Christ as Lord, and who trusts in His promises.

Matthew 23:23 BSB
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin. But you have disregarded the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Matthew 23:23 CSB
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, and yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law-justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These things should have been done without neglecting the others.

 

[brightfame52]

Not in many translations, or are you KJVO?

Not here to talk about translations, you condition your justification before God on your faith, you condition it on law keeping.

 

[prism]

Not here to talk about translations, you condition your justification before God on your faith, you condition it on law keeping.

Believe what you want or rather are ordained to believe.

 

[prism]

These translations do not confirm your point and there is no reason to say that they can be translated either way.

For one thing, you are basing ;your contention on your translation of one verse, ignoring everything else said in Scripture about Faith.

For another, I can find no Bible expert/translator who agrees with your "take" on this matter. You'd think that there would be some, if it were as you are claiming. Here's what one of them DID say by way of explaining the wording (the highlighting is mine) --

"Faith - Piety toward God; confidence in him. Faith in God here means that we are to give to him what is his due; as mercy and justice mean to do to people, in all circumstances, what is right toward them. "

It is not difficult to see that what is being referred to in Matthew 23:23 (the verse you chose) is not the same as in the case of the person who has received the Holy Spirit and responds to Christ who paid the price for our sins, who acclaims Christ as Lord, and who trusts in His promises.

I think if I said milk is white, you would try to refute me. Anything I say you attempt to refute. I don't think you even know my point, but you'll still try to refute it. What was my point? What was 'my take'? (read carefully).

 

[Albion]

I think if I said milk is white, you would try to refute me.

I already took into account that you will be defensive and accusatory if anything you have asserted is disagreed with in any way.

Nevertheless, the facts are the facts, as was shown to you.

You have a nice day now.

 

[prism]

I already took into account that you will be defensive and accusatory if anything you have asserted is disagreed with in any way.

Nevertheless, the facts are the facts, as was shown to you.

You have a nice day now.

Pot/kettle, what was my point that you refuted?
Personally, I don't think you knew it.

 

[brightfame52]

Believe what you want or rather are ordained to believe.

lol, looks like you ordained to believe Justification by the works of the law.

 

[prism]

lol, looks like you ordained to believe Justification by the works of the law.

I believe justification the way God's Word reveals it...by faith.
Next, you'll be calling faith a work, rather than a gift.

 

[brightfame52]

Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven !

Those Christ died for are forgiven of sins before they believe, and while they are enemies, and the reason for this blessedness Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The reason for this blessedness is that aforetime, God had laid or caused to meet their sins upon Christ Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

And by this Divine Act of imputation, all those persons whom sins, iniquities had been laid upon Him, they received from God the Judge of all men, acquittal and discharge from them, or they were Justified from them ! Now when did this happen ? When did God lay their sins upon Him ? Well if we look at our text Isa 53:6, the deed was done in the past tense, though His coming to die was yet future from the time of the writing, for it was the Eternal Purpose of God that made the act eternally accomplished, so much so that He was slain from the foundation Rev 13:8 ! Slain for what ? For the sins laid upon upon Him Isa 53:6 ! 12

 

[Albion]

When did God lay their sins upon Him ? Well if we look at our text Isa 53:6, the deed was done in the past tense, though His coming to die was yet future from the time of the writing,

Yes.

for it was the Eternal Purpose of God that made the act eternally accomplished,

No.

That's fanciful and may even sound learned at first glance, but the verse you cited here is prophetic.

It does refer to the coming of the Savior, so both of the other two ideas that have been advanced--that there is no time with God and that there IS time with God during which he accomplished the redemption prior to the coming of Christ--are in error.

 

[brightfame52]

Acquitted by the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all !

Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Whomever the Us all here is, whose iniquties were laid [caused to light upon] on Him [Christ], hence by that Nothing can be charged to them, they are absolutely acquitted/absolved :

to free from guilt or blame or their consequences:

The y are Justified from all the consequences of their sins, which unbelief is an consequence See Rom 11:32 !

This their acquittal is also confirmed from Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

That word purged means:

C.a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

Thats acquittal from the guilt of sin :

the fact or state of having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, especially against moral or penal law; culpability:

Now this came about by nothing else but the Death of Christ BY HIMSELF !

No, those He died for do not have to believe it, accept it or do anything but continue being ungodly sinners, the Truth of it remains a Sacred Fact !

Nothing can be laid to their Charge, not even from God , because by Christ's Death, God is the One that Justified them , cleanse them from the guilt of sin Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

That is all for whom He died and rose again have been by God Justified, acquitted because He laid their iniquities upon Him. Paul also calls it their offences Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

25 Who was betrayed and put to death because of our misdeeds and was raised to secure our justification (our acquittal), [making our account balance and absolving us from all guilt before God].AMP 12

 

[brightfame52]

Yes.

No.

That's fanciful and may even sound learned at first glance, but the verse you cited here is prophetic.

It does refer to the coming of the Savior, so both of the other two ideas that have been advanced--that there is no time with God and that there IS time with God during which he accomplished the redemption prior to the coming of Christ--are in error.

You can disagree, but you wrong.

 

[Albion]

You can disagree, but you wrong.

Excuse me for the delay. I was laughing too hard to type.

 

[brightfame52]

Acquitted by the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all !2

Those of Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Listen, none of the Us all here, the same Us all in Rom 8:32-33

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Nothing can be Laid to their charge, which are God's Elect.

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

That word charged is the greek word egkaleō and means to accuse, to call into account.

Now to accuse or charge someone with something is to be able to legally and legitimately find fault, wrongdoing , transgression.

For instance, if in light of Christ having the Elect's iniquity laid upon Him, if they after that could stilll be charged with unbelief, then as unbelievers Rom 8:33 cannot apply to them, and if that is so, Isa 53:6 cannot apply neither, because unbelief is a iniquity, a wrongdoing, a wicked evil doing, this we know by Heb 3:12

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Unbelief is morally and ethically wrong ! Its iniquity a violation of right or duty; wicked act; sin.

Now if Unbelief is Evil, its iniquitous, and if it was not layed on Christ as Per Isa 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Then all of those of Isa 53:6, the Us all, did not have all their iniquties layed upon Him, which makes a False Gospel to proclaim, and it makes the evil of unbelief a charge that can be laid upon them in Isa 53:6 and also Rom 8:32-33, which would destroy their credibility !

 

[Josiah]

Not here to talk about translations, you condition your justification before God on your faith, you condition it on law keeping.

Your rejection of the Sola Fide part of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Gloria is well noted. It's unbiblical, it's unhistorical, it's heretical.

And your rejection of faith as GOD'S work/blessing/gift but your Arminianistic insistence that faith is something the dead creates and gives to self (in obedience to the Law) is also unbiblical, unhistorical and heretical. It's a denial of the Soli Deo Gloria part of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Gloria.

Faith is not irrelevant but essential to personal justification. And it is NOT a work performed by the dead, unregenerate, atheist - it's "the gift of God." GOD doing something is not SELF doing it.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Correct. Thus the "L" of TULIP is unbiblical, unhistorical and heretical. So much for Calvinism...

But the verse does NOT say, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all and this is applied to every individual (not just us) whether they embrace, rely, apply such to self by the divine gift of faith or spit in God's face, denounce Him, reject Christ, repudiate all He did or not because faith is a joke and completely irrelevant, so everyone is personally justified and there ain't no hell, ain't no need to proclaim the Gospel and Jesus was just kidding when He gave the Great Commission."



.



.

 

[brightfame52]

Acquitted by the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all !3

Now if Unbelief is Evil, its iniquitous, and if it was not layed on Christ as Per Isa 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Then all of those of Isa 53:6, the Us all, did not have all their iniquities layed upon Him, which makes a False Gospel to proclaim, and it makes the evil of unbelief a charge that can be laid upon them in Isa 53:6 and also Rom 8:32-33, which would destroy their credibility !

Also, If Unbelief was not laid to the charge of Christ when the the Lord Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That word iniquity avon :

I.perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity
A.
iniquity

B.
guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)

C.
consequence of or punishment for iniquity

That word perversity means:


willfully determined or disposed to go counter to what is expected or desired; contrary.

2.
characterized by or proceeding from such a determination or disposition:
"a perverse mood."

3.
wayward or cantankerous.

4.
persistent or obstinate in what is wrong.

5.
turned away from or rejecting what is right, good, or proper; wicked or corrupt.

Thats actually what happened in Adam, man went into perversity,he turned away as in Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Which constitutes Unbelief. Now if Unbelief was not laid upon Christ as an Iniquity, that means the very first sin of Adam Christ did not die for, again the very first sin was an Act of Apostacy.

Peter quotes this verse here 1 Pet 2:25

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Gone astray planaō :

I.
to cause to stray, to lead astray, lead aside from the right way
A.
to go astray, wander, roam about


II.
metaph.
A.
to lead away from the truth, to lead into error, to deceive

B.
to be led into error

C.
to be led aside from the path of virtue, to go astray, sin

D.
to sever or fall away from the truth
i.
of heretics


E.
to be led away into error and sin

And the Unbelief of Heb 3:12

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


This is basically the sin that Eve committed, being led astray by the devil into unbelief See 2 Cor 11:3 !

Now if Laying our iniquities on Christ did not include the initial sin of unbelief, then Christ did not die for it, and it can be Justly charged to God's Elect that He did die for, and it made Adams sin unpardonable by the death of Christ, which contradicts the teachings of Paul here Rom 5:15-17



15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ )

Finally, If Christ's Death did not deal with unbelief, then that means that the one sin He did not die for, man must overcome it by his freewill and secure his own Salvation, something he did and not what Christ did, since as its falsely taught, Christ did not die for it !

 

[Josiah]

@brightfame52

This video is nearly an hour long and I'm sure way beyond your attention span, but perhaps just watch minutes 11-16. Just those 5 minutes.
I think it might help you.

Friend, the SCRIPTURES you actually quote are all 100% true and correct (and literally so).... AS EQUALLY are all those which you refuse to consider, that state that is essential for the individual to receive this, those quoted to you but ignored by you are also 100% true and correct (and literally so).

And you are entirely correct when you note that Scripture teaches that faith is not OUR work but is the gift and blessing of God alone. Faith is not so much a CONDITION but a MEANS by which the atoning/justifying work of God is applied to, apprehended by, the individual (and since it is for the individual, it is thus subjective). The distinction between objective justification (the atoning work of Christ - which you've proven is for all) is received by means of faith - which you've proven is not OUR work but God's gift.


@prism this might interest you, too. BTW, Dr. Jordan Cooper is Lutheran but not LCMS, he belongs to a very small Lutheran denomination (in fact, he's president of their seminary). If you want to continue listening (say minute 30 ff), he talks about how this is in our Lutheran Confessions and in another video, how it is taught by Luther and indeed several ECF albeit with different terminology.



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[prism]

@brightfame52 You claim to be Reformed but never quote any of the major Reformed Confessions (Westminster/Belgic/Heidelberg/Dort) to back your views. Why?

 

[brightfame52]

Acquitted by the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all !4

Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The words " laid on Him " are interesting, the word lay paga:

to meet, encounter, reach

fall ,cause to light upon

John Gill on this verse writes and I agree with

and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all; that is, God the Father, against whom we have sinned, from whom we have turned, and whose justice must be satisfied; he has laid on Christ, his own Son, the sins of all his elect ones; which are as it were collected together, and made one bundle and burden of, and therefore expressed in the singular number, "iniquity", and laid on Christ, and were bore by him, even all the sins of all God's elect; a heavy burden this! which none but the mighty God could bear; this was typified by laying of hands, and laying of sins upon the sacrifice, and putting the iniquities of Israel upon the head of the scapegoat, by whom they were bore, and carried away. The words may be rendered, "he made to meet upon him the iniquity of us all" (r); the elect of God, as they live in every part of the world, their sins are represented as coming from all quarters, east, west, north, and south; and as meeting in Christ, as they did, when he suffered as their representative on the cross: or "he made to rush, or fall upon him the iniquity of us all" (s); our sins, like a large and mighty army, beset him around, and fell upon him in a hostile manner, and were the cause of his death; by which means the law and justice of God had full satisfaction, and our recovery from ruin and destruction is procured, which otherwise must have been the consequence of turning to our own ways; so the ancient Jews understood this of the Messiah

Yet I want to know when did God first lay the iniquities of those Christ died for upon Him ?

Also when God did it, who became Legally liable for those iniquities ?

Liable means responsible, accountable !

Were those whom the iniquities belonged to now be responsible for them after God laid them upon Christ for them ? Can they ever be called into account for them ? See Rom 8:33-34 !

Well understand this, to lay iniquity upon Christ is solely a work of God, who would argue this ? And what does the scripture teach about God's Works ? Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

This work of laying our iniquities upon Christ is no exception ! In fact in the Purpose of God which is Eternal, Those iniquties had already been laid on Christ, or else how could it be written by Peter this 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Clearly this states that the redeeming Blood of Christ was foreordained before the foundation,

Also John writes Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Slain for what ? Why for our iniquities ! At the Least we know that God had already determined who was liable for the iniquties of those whom in the time state He would be slain for Acts 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

I Think we have established at least when Christ became accountable for the iniquities that were laid on Him, it was from the foundation of the world or before the foundation of the world 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now since Christ became Liable for them that Early, they are also Discharged from them that Early !

Discharged means :

to relieve of a charge or load; unload:

to relieve of obligation, responsibility

They were not any Longer responsible or accountable for their iniquities, because God had made Christ accountable for them.

Thats why Paul could preach of those to whom it applies 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

That world in 2 Cor 5:19 is a unbelieving world that is discharged of all its iniquities and transgressions, or trespasses against God.

That fact alone should keep any honest heart from concluding that the World in 2 Cor 5:19 is all individuals without exception, since we know many shall die in their sins Jn 8:24 which is impossible if they have been discharged from them !

If they were Laid on Christ, then they were discharged of them, simple as that ! And God will not impute sin unto them ever Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

If He ever did, He becomes mutable !