Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[prism]

1. Faith = to trust, to rely upon, to embrace, to apprehend. The question in personal justification is WHAT? Trusting, claiming WHAT results in the justification to that individual (here and now)?

Romans 3:24-25 KJV
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

2. You have suggested trusting in a promise, in the reality of Jesus as a person, in obedience. I've suggested that NONE of those things saves, NONE of those is the Savior, trusting/relying/embracing/apprehending any or all of those would do, well, nothing

His obedience, not ours..

Romans 5:19 KJV
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Traditional Christianity proclaims and Scripture teaches that JESUS saves - via His incarnation and perfect life, His sacrificial death on the Cross, His resurrection and empty tomb, in history, as an objective, real fact. Via His atoning/justifying work. His work is THERE. It's REAL. It's not a promise (as yet unfulfilled), it's not just Jesus being real, it's not some phantom - no, it's his justifying, atoning work. Jesus DID something. It's REAL, it's there, it exists, it is objective. It is His atoning/justifying work. It's real. It's historic. It's a fact. It's objective. This foundational truth is often called "Objective Justification." Many Scriptures make this very point (although you've not accepted any of them).

Yes, I have a testimony of conversion (at 25yrs old-no infant baptism here) that attests to those facts. I never heard of OJ until I was in the LCMS.

4. And it is for all, for everyone, for the world - as the Bible so often, verbatim, boldly, word-for-word states. While the Bible at times says it's "for the Elect" it far more often says for everyone, for all, for the world. Which is Gospel because if it was only for say 10% of the people, we'd have to know the list of names of those 10% or no one could know if their faith is in something FOR THEM (likely, not). To say "for the elect" does not contradict when the BIble says "for all" since "elect" is a subset of "all." We don't have to guess and HOPE against HOPE that we are on the list because the Bible is right when it says He died for all, His atoning work is for all. Thus He died for ME (Cuz I'm part of "all"). There is not one Scripture - and not one Christian voice for some 1600 years - that states, "Jesus died ONLY for the elect, ONLY for some few, and probably not you." But the Bible does state the exact opposite.

Equally, there is not one Scripture that says Jesus objectively justified the world.

5. But this OBJECTIVE REALITY needs to be applied. And the vehicle for that is faith. Thus, it's not JUST the Cross or JUST faith but both. Not either/or but both/and. The atoning work EXISTS whether someone personally embraces it or not, but it doesn't benefit THEM as an individual. That doesn't mean it didn't accomplish anything - Christ would have died if that was the only individual on the planet, it is a priceless treasure gained at GREAT cost for that person. But if it's not received, it's not their possession. I gave you my "pancake illustration." I made pancakes for my boys. Nutritious and delicious pancakes. Their favorite breakfast. They are REAL. They objectively exist. For all of them. But they just sitting there on the table.... unconsumed, uneaten... well, they're missing out, aren't they? Again, as several of us here have tried to explain to you and brightfam52, it's the Cross plus Faith.... the objective atoning/justifying/saving work of Christ PLUS the trust/reliance/embrace/apprehending of the individual.

I hope I'm not being clumped in with BrightFlame again, as I hold that there is no justification apart from faith.
Why isn't the Holy Spirit and His Word the OBJECTIVE REALITY? Creating the needed faith in His elect?
Besides, God works in the arena of certainties, not Lady Luck.
Your pancake illustration reminds me of the 'Abraham Lincoln Emancipation Proclamation' illustration...which I also heard in an LCMS Church.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[Josiah]

Romans 3:24-25 KJV Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

@prism

Correct.
That's Objective justification.
Received/applied/apprehended by faith IN CHRIST.
Exactly as we've been saying. Including by quoting this exact same Scripture.

Equally, there is not one Scripture that says Jesus objectively justified the world.

We've been all over this. MANY Scriptures state that. Including verses you quote. You just reject them.

There's not one Scripture that says Jesus did nothing or that Jesus died ONLY for some few or that faith apprehends nothing or that saving faith comes from believing in the Holy Spirit or the Bible.

Why isn't the Holy Spirit and His Word the OBJECTIVE REALITY?

Both the Holy Spirit and the Bible are objective realities, but neither is the Savior. Jesus did the atoning/justifying work - not the Bible. Faith in the Bible doesn't save because the Bible isn't the Savior. Jesus is. He did it.

Creating the needed faith in His elect?

Faith in WHAT/WHOM?
WHY does faith that trusts that bring justification to the one with faith?

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The individual is to come..... to whom?
Why? Because He alone is the Savior?
Because HIS atoning/justifying work is real, is there, is objective - a reality that can be apprehended/applied?
How? By faith? Faith that trusts/relies/embraces/applies what He DID (He hath..... past tense, aroist tense)?



1. Faith = to trust, to rely upon, to embrace, to apprehend. The question in personal justification is WHAT? Trusting, claiming WHAT results in the justification to that individual (here and now)?

2. Traditional Christianity proclaims and Scripture teaches that JESUS saves - via His incarnation and perfect life, His sacrificial death on the Cross, His resurrection and empty tomb, in history, as an objective, real fact. Via His atoning/justifying work. His work is THERE. It's REAL. It's not a promise (as yet unfulfilled), it's not just Jesus being real, it's not some phantom - no, it's his justifying, atoning work. Jesus DID something. It's REAL, it's there, it exists, it is objective. It is His atoning/justifying work. It's real. It's historic. It's a fact. It's objective. This foundational truth is often called "Objective Justification." Many Scriptures make this very point (although you've not accepted any of them).

3. And it is for all, for everyone, for the world - as the Bible so often, verbatim, boldly, word-for-word states. While the Bible at times says it's "for the Elect" it far more often says for everyone, for all, for the world. Which is Gospel because if it was only for say 10% of the people, we'd have to know the list of names of those 10% or no one could know if their faith is in something FOR THEM (likely, not). To say "for the elect" does not contradict when the BIble says "for all" since "elect" is a subset of "all." We don't have to guess and HOPE against HOPE that we are on the list because the Bible is right when it says He died for all, His atoning work is for all. Thus He died for ME (Cuz I'm part of "all"). There is not one Scripture - and not one Christian voice for some 1600 years - that states, "Jesus died ONLY for the elect, ONLY for some few, and probably not you." But the Bible does state the exact opposite.

4. But this OBJECTIVE REALITY needs to be applied to the individual. And the vehicle for that is faith. Thus, it's not JUST the Cross or JUST faith but both. Not either/or but both/and. The atoning work EXISTS whether someone personally embraces it or not, but it doesn't benefit THEM as an individual. That doesn't mean it didn't accomplish anything - Christ would have died if that was the only individual on the planet, it is a priceless treasure gained at GREAT cost for that person. But if it's not received, it's not their possession. Again, as several of us here have tried to explain to you and brightfam52, it's the Cross plus Faith.... the objective atoning/justifying/saving work of Christ PLUS the trust/reliance/embrace/apprehending of the individual.



For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia)... and this caused Him to DO something - something real, objective. For the world.
That He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) who provides to that world His saving, atoning, justifying work (Objective justification)
That whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) those who apprehend HIS objective work for them by faith. Not the "Whosoever"
Has everlasting life. The result. Personal justification. (Subjective justification - justification applied to the individual)
Soli Deo Gloria. God gets all the credit, all the glory, because all this is His blessing, His work, His gift, His doing.




.

 

[prism]

@prism

Correct.
That's Objective justification.
Received/applied/apprehended by faith IN CHRIST.
Exactly as we've been saying. Including by quoting this exact same Scripture.

It was interesting while quoting my quote (see below), you did not emphasize 'through faith', which shows that the verse is speaking of subjective, not objective justification

Romans 3:24-25 KJV Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

so again, I've yet to see a verse declaring OJ.

Both the Holy Spirit and the Bible are objective realities, but neither is the Savior. Jesus did the atoning/justifying work - not the Bible. Faith in the Bible doesn't save because the Bible isn't the Savior. Jesus is. He did it.

Are you really prepared to separate God's written Word, from His living Word? (See Heb 4:12 & Rev 19:13)

Faith in WHAT/WHOM?
WHY does faith that trusts that bring justification to the one with faith?

Faith in Jesus. Why does unbelief that rejects the Son bring OJ to ones without faith?

The individual is to come..... to whom?
Why? Because He alone is the Savior?
Because HIS atoning/justifying work is real, is there, is objective - a reality that can be apprehended/applied?
How? By faith? Faith that trusts/relies/embraces/applies what He DID (He hath..... past tense, aroist tense)?

John 6:44 NASB
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The individual is to come? or the individual can't come unless?
Why? Because he needs to be taught of God the Father..

John 6:45 NASB
It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Because HIS atoning/justifying work is real, is there, is objective - a reality that can be apprehended/applied?
How? By faith? Faith that trusts/relies/embraces/applies what He DID (He hath..... past tense, aroist tense)?

His atoning work is real and certain for those whom the Father draws to the Son (v44) and is taught of God (v45).

 

[brightfame52]

Justifieth the ungodly !

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

One of the most popular and damnable heresies in false antichrist religion is that Faith, which pleases God Heb 11:6 is a condition for man to do, to act before God does Justify him; BUT thats a lie against the Truth and against God's Grace, the fact is, those for whom Christ died are Justified /made righteous by that single act of His alone Rom 5:19 and that while they are in themselves still being ungodly, even enemies Rom 5:10 !

Justifying the ungodly is in the present tense and ungody is preceded by the definite article :

τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐργαζομένῳ πιστεύοντι δὲ ἐπὶ τὸν δικαιοῦντα τὸν ἀσεβῆ λογίζεται ἡ πίστις αὐτοῦ εἰς δικαιοσύνην

This means they were being counted as Justified/made Righteous while they were the ungodly ! That word ungodly means :

I.destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious

Remember earlier Paul wrote of the state of the natural man by nature Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Yes, while those whom Christ died are in that ungodly state, they are being Justified, hence , God hath because of Christ Justified the ungodly !

You see one cannot act faith in Christ, which act pleases God, and that be the cause of God Justifying them, when one is Justified while being ungodly, and a ungodly person cannot and does not please God with one single act of theirs !

That thought in fact is negated at the very start with Paul's statement "But to him that worketh not" which can be rendered also "But to the one not yet acting"

This again denotes being Justified without any act of theirs being done or considered !

 

[Josiah]

It was interesting while quoting my quote (see below), you did not emphasize 'through faith', which shows that the verse is speaking of subjective, not objective justification

@prism

Actually, if you read post 1022, you too will note that I emphasized "through faith" (I put your quote into bold print, unlike you) AND I emphasized that the verse specifically states objective justification, I put that too into bold enlarged print (stressed since you seem to have not read that part of the verse). The verse YOU quote proves both the points we've been making to you: The Cross provides objective justification and this is received by the individual via faith.

Again, let's look at the verse. Even in your choice of the KJV.
Romans 3:24-25 KJV Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

1. Note the Sola Gratia. Freely, by His grace.

2.. Note that this justification is NOT from agreeing that the Holy Spirit and/or that the Bible exists and/or we're obedient to something. It is the redemption that IS (already there, already exists, it's an objective fact) in Christ Jesus. It IS because of His blood. Solus Christus. Jesus. Is.

3. Note that Jesus was sent to bring propitiation. And this God HATH (past tense) SENT (Past tense) FORTH. 2 Aorist middle indicative. HATH. It's past tense, He DID this, in the past, historical, real, factual... and the tense means it has continuing result. God DID this, in the past, in history, as an objective FACT, it's there - and has continuing result, it still is effectual. God HATH done this via Christ, via His atoning/justifying work, "His blood" which has the result of propitiation, the remission of sins. And this is ours "though faith" (unlike you, I stressed that point). Sola Fide.

Why does unbelief that rejects the Son bring OJ to ones without faith?

It doesn't. No one remotely said it does (well, brightfam52 suggests that - but no one on our side)

His atoning work is real for those whom the Father draws to the Son (v44) and is taught of God (v45).

So, the Cross never happened - it's a historical lie, it's not real, it never happened - if people don't believe He died for them? Wow. You have a strange idea of history and reality; I invite you to rethink that. What about the sun? Does it exist, is it real ONLY for those who believe the sun exists but it is a nonreality, it doesn't exist, there is no sun if someone doesn't think it does? I invite you to re-think that view of reality.

Romans 3:24-25 that YOU TOO have presented, says nothing about God both DID and DIDN'T send Jesus Jesus. That Jesus both DID and DIDN'T die. Did Jesus actually DO what the Bible says He did, or did He not?

OF COURSE, without faith they don't benefit from what He did - but that doesn't mean He didn't do it. If I win the lottery but don't claim it, I don't benefit from that but that doesn't mean that I didn't win or that the lottery doesn't exist. The FACT that I won is objective, real, present, historical. I can't claim something that isn't there, isn't real. And if I don't claim it, that doesn't prove I didn't win or that the lottery doesn't exist.. it only means I personally, individually won't benefit from that win.




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[prism]

Note that this justification is NOT from agreeing that the Holy Spirit and/or that the Bible exists and/or we're obedient to something. It is the redemption that IS (already there, already exists, it's an objective fact) in Christ Jesus. It IS because of His blood. Solus Christus. Jesus. Is.

The classical definition of justification is being reckoned (or declared) righteous on account of Christ through faith.

It takes reading into the text to come up with OJ, the exact same thing you accuse the Reformed , when it comes to limited atonement.
At least you've admitted there are a couple of supporting verses for LA, but I see none for OJ.

 

[prism]

His atoning work is real and certain for those whom the Father draws to the Son (v44) and is taught of God (v45).

So, the Cross never happened - it's a historical lie, it's not real, it never happened - if people don't believe He died for them? Wow. You have a strange idea of history and reality; I invite you to rethink that. What about the sun? Does it exist, is it real ONLY for those who believe the sun exists but it is a nonreality, it doesn't exist, there is no sun if someone doesn't think it does? I invite you to re-think that view of reality.

That is one strange conclusion from my comment on the atoning work of Jesus (which was drawn from Scripture), I'm afraid our communication has broken down.

 

[Josiah]

At least you've admitted there are a couple of supporting verses for LA, but I see none for OJ.

There are NO Scriptures that support limited atonement as a couple of Reformed friends here have proven). The Bible specifically, verbatim STATES the exact opposite.

You have supplied Scriptures that teach that Christ did the atoning/justifiying work. He HATH done it, it is real, it exists, it's objectively there, it's an objective fact ... there IS something for personal faith to apprehend. That reality is objective justification.

my comment on the atoning work of Jesus (which was drawn from Scripture)

Right. And that's EXACTLY the point we're making. Jesus is real... He objective, factually existed - in history. His atoning/justifying work HAPPENED, He did it, it actually did! The Incarnation, the Cross, the Empty Tomb - they are REAL, they exist, it's an objective fact. So, there IS something objective real for individual faith to apprehend, embrace, trust, rely upon - and thus bring such to that individual. Otherwise, there's nothing for faith to have faith in.



@prism Perhaps it would help if you define what you think is meant in classic theology by "objective justification." Because I find it... well, difficult... to understand how you can quote the Scriptures you do and state some things you do and not accept this very foundational idea. I request you do that; perhaps there is a misunderstanding.

Unless you are standing with brightfam52 in denying any role for personal faith AND/OR denying that Jesus died for all. You keep insisting you do NOT stand with Brightfam in his two heresies but maybe you actually agree with one or both of them! True, objective justification falls in either of those heresies - but then we need to discuss those heresies. Again. We'll get NOWHERE on this if you hold to either of Brighfam's heresies. We'll need to address those...



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[brightfame52]

Contrary to Justification by Grace !

It would be totally contrary to Justification by Grace Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Neither would it be freely, if it Justification, if its conditioned upon faith, for then it would make that a condition which is also required by the Law, for it is written Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Who can deny that Jesus here specifically Identifies Faith as one of the weightier matters of the Law ? And that its something done !

So for those of you that teach Justification before God by mans faith, you are teaching Justification by doing one of the weightier matters of the Law and there is no escaping that conclusion, and so must be in contradiction of Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin , as well as contradicting Justification by Grace ! 12

 

[Josiah]

Contrary to Justification by Grace !

It would be totally contrary to Justification by Grace Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Neither would it be freely, if it Justification, if its conditioned upon faith, for then it would make that a condition which is also required by the Law, for it is written Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Who can deny that Jesus here specifically Identifies Faith as one of the weightier matters of the Law ? And that its something done !

So for those of you that teach Justification before God by mans faith, you are teaching Justification by doing one of the weightier matters of the Law and there is no escaping that conclusion, and so must be in contradiction of Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin , as well as contradicting Justification by Grace ! 12

Your heresy of denying any role of faith in personal justification has been noted. MANY times.
Your heresy of denying Jesus died for all has been noted. MANY times.

Yes, faith is something done, but you perpetuate the wrong idea that the spiritually dead does this; no, God does it.



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[prism]

the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Who can deny that Jesus here specifically Identifies Faith as one of the weightier matters of the Law ? And that its something done !

Did you ever consider the word 'faith' is actually translated 'faithfulness'?

πίστιν faithfulness g4102 ; at least that's how my Interlinear renders it.

Faithfulness would not be a work of the law, but a fruit of the Spirit under the new covenant.

 

[Albion]

Did you ever consider the word 'faith' is actually translated 'faithfulness'?

πίστιν faithfulness g4102 ; at least that's how my Interlinear renders it.

Faithfulness would not be a work of the law, but a fruit of the Spirit under the new covenant.

Nope, faithfulness is not faith. It's related to faith, that's all.

And in any case, it doesn't mean to 'have faith' in the religious sense of that word.

 

[brightfame52]

Did you ever consider the word 'faith' is actually translated 'faithfulness'?

πίστιν faithfulness g4102 ; at least that's how my Interlinear renders it.

Faithfulness would not be a work of the law, but a fruit of the Spirit under the new covenant.

I know how the word is translated, did you consider its translated faith ?

 

[brightfame52]

Did you ever consider the word 'faith' is actually translated 'faithfulness'?

πίστιν faithfulness g4102 ; at least that's how my Interlinear renders it.

Faithfulness would not be a work of the law, but a fruit of the Spirit under the new covenant.

Faith and Faithfulness to God is the same thing, in any case, its talking about Faith. Luke calls it the Love of God Lk 11:42


But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Man under the Law is to Love God with all his heart and neighbor as himself, Jesus once said Matt 22:36-40

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Thats why Jesus said it was the weightier matters of the Law, what is more weightier than these of the Law ? Jesus also uses the definite article for the Law.

So if a person is making their act of faith in God, in Jesus Christ as a condition they meet in order for God to save or Justify them, make them righteous, they put themselves under the Law and consequently forfeit grace and is obligated to keep the entire law for salvation.

 

[Albion]

Faith and Faithfulness to God is the same thing,

Not in the least!

The Bible is clear that even keeping the Law wouldn't be what is required of us if we are to be saved. And what's required is Faith.

And it's NOT just faithfulness or loyalty to something or other as one or several posters have insisted.

Further, "Faithfulness to God" would mean that all manner of people who are not even Christians but do believe in following some code of conduct in keeping with their belief in some sort of deity (which we also have among our posters here) is just as good as believing and trusting in Christ as one's Lord and Savior.

No. None of those personal opinions that have been expressed by one member or another here come close to being "Faith" as Christ himself explained it and the Bible unequivocally defines it.

 

[Josiah]

Not in the least!

The Bible is clear that even keeping the Law wouldn't be what is required of us if we are to be saved. And what's required is Faith.

And it's NOT just faithfulness or loyalty to something or other as one or several posters have insisted.

Further, "Faithfulness to God" would mean that all manner of people who are not even Christians but do believe in following some code of conduct in keeping with their belief in some sort of deity (which we also have among our posters here) is just as good as believing and trusting in Christ as one's Lord and Savior.

No. None of those personal opinions that have been expressed by one member or another here come close to being "Faith" as Christ himself explained it and the Bible unequivocally defines it.

Well, faithfulness plays a role in sanctification but not justification... there what matters is faith IN CHRIST, faith/trust/application/embrace by the individual in the atoning/justifying work of Christ.



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[brightfame52]

Not in the least!

The Bible is clear that even keeping the Law wouldn't be what is required of us if we are to be saved. And what's required is Faith.

And it's NOT just faithfulness or loyalty to something or other as one or several posters have insisted.

Further, "Faithfulness to God" would mean that all manner of people who are not even Christians but do believe in following some code of conduct in keeping with their belief in some sort of deity (which we also have among our posters here) is just as good as believing and trusting in Christ as one's Lord and Savior.

No. None of those personal opinions that have been expressed by one member or another here come close to being "Faith" as Christ himself explained it and the Bible unequivocally defines it.

Yes they are the same. Faithfulness to God or man is because its commanded by God. Matt 22:36-48

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

So if you base your acceptance with God on your faith, faithfulness, you are seeking salvation by law keeping, I dont care how you try to deny it.

 

[prism]

Nope, faithfulness is not faith. It's related to faith, that's all.

And in any case, it doesn't mean to 'have faith' in the religious sense of that word.

My point is what BF52 is calling faith may actually mean faithfulness. Same root word.

 

[prism]

I know how the word is translated, did you consider its translated faith ?

Not in many translations, or are you KJVO?

 

[Albion]

Well, faithfulness plays a role in sanctification but not justification... there what matters is faith IN CHRIST, faith/trust/application/embrace by the individual in the atoning/justifying work of Christ.



.

I agree that Faith must be "faithful," but that doesn't mean that Faith and Faithfulness are interchangeable words or mean the same thing.

Yet that is what we've been reading on this thread.

Did you ever consider the word 'faith' is actually translated 'faithfulness'?

While another poster didn't so much as have a clue.

Yes they are the same. Faithfulness to God or man is because its commanded by God.