Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[prism]

One of those is SOLUS CHRISTUS. It teaches that God not only FELT something but DID something - something real, something existing, something there - something for SOLA FIDE to embrace, apprehend, trust, apply. That's objective justification. Subjective justification is meaningless without objective justification.... as is feeling with nothing for that feeling to grasp.



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See post #999

 

[Josiah]

His Holy Spirit, Word, promises, perfect obedience, shed blood is more than sufficient provision for apprehending.

Above is post 999

@prism So... if one has faith in the Holy Spirit and/or the Bible and/or their obedience, they have personal justification?

You said you accept the five solas.
None of those are Solus Spiritus Sanctus.
None of those is Sola Biblia.
None of those is Sola Obedientia.
Rather, we have Solus Christus. CHRIST. His real atoning work, His real Cross, His actual resurrection. Real. There. Existing. Objective.

That's what the Sola Fide apprehends - not the Holy Spirit or our Bible or our obedience. And if what Jesus did is real, then it's objective. And there IS something for faith to grasp.



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[Lamb]

His Holy Spirit, Word, promises, perfect obedience, shed blood is more than sufficient provision for apprehending.

The above really does prove that subjectively, we can't be justified unless it were also objectively true.

 

[Albion]

His Holy Spirit, Word, promises, perfect obedience, shed blood is more than sufficient provision for apprehending.

Apprehending what? You did mention "shed blood," but the import of the statement appears to be that the idea of God having graciously forgiven sin, depending perhaps only upon our willingness to accept it, is enough.

If so, I can't agree with that. If it were so, receiving the "news" (i.e. divine revelation) would be all that matters. The Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection of the Messiah would mean next to nothing. All of that--the heart of the New Testament--would be some sort of sacred drama, perhaps, but nothing fundamentally important or decisive in itself.

 

[prism]

One of those is SOLUS CHRISTUS. It teaches that God not only FELT something but DID something - something real, something existing, something there - something for SOLA FIDE to embrace, apprehend, trust, apply. That's objective justification. Subjective justification is meaningless without objective justification.... as is feeling with nothing for that feeling to grasp.



.

Jesus is objective, fine, but nowhere does it say, 'Jesus justified (declared righteous) the whole world.

 

[prism]

The above really does prove that subjectively, we can't be justified unless it were also objectively true.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved', is an objective promise apprehended by faith. So, your point?

 

[Josiah]

Jesus is objective, fine, but nowhere does it say, 'Jesus justified (declared righteous) the whole world

So just the reality that Jesus EXISTED matters in justification? Not His atoning work? Not His Cross and Empty Tomb? Just that He lived (like Julius Caesar did)? Faith ONLY embraces He the person, not what He did? Or faith doesn't embrace Christ or anything He did but rather God's "PROMISE" in what He didn't actually do? Or do you hold that Jesus didn't exist, Calvary didn't happen back then - but rather Jesus' work happens AFTER each person comes to faith?


We've been all over the many verses, you just reject them:

Hebrews 1:3
John 1:9
2 Corinthians 5:15 and 19
1 Timothy 2:6
Romans 3:22-25
And many more

"Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved', is an objective promise apprehended by faith. So, your point?

No, the, atoning work is not just a "promise" - it's a reality.
The Incarnation, the Cross, the Resurrection - they happened, they are REAL, they are THERE for faith to ACTUALLY grasp.



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[prism]

His Holy Spirit, Word, promises, perfect obedience, shed blood is more than sufficient provision for apprehending.

Apprehending what? The idea God has forgiven sins...depending, perhaps upon our willingness to accept his decision?

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, reveals righteousness, and His Word agrees with the Spirit, His perfect obedience satisfies God's justice (includes His punishment at Calvary), his shed blood atones for sin all sufficient for apprehending eternal life through Jesus Christ.

I can't agree with that because if it were so, the "news" (i.e. divine revelation) would be all that matters. The Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection of the Messiah would mean next to nothing--some sort of sacred drama, maybe, but nothing fundamentally important or decisive in itself.

I hope you can agree with the little I laid out above, as to cover everything would just be too extensive.

 

[prism]

So just the reality that Jesus EXISTED matters in justification? Not His atoning work? Not His Cross and Empty Tomb? Just that He lived (like Julius Caesar did)? Faith ONLY embraces He the person, not what He did? Or faith doesn't embrace Christ or anything He did but rather God's "PROMISE" in what He didn't actually do? Or do you hold that Jesus didn't exist, Calvary didn't happen back then - but rather Jesus' work happens AFTER each person comes to faith?


We've been all over the many verses, you just reject them:

Where did I say, that 'only that Jesus existed is only what matters?
You can also answer my often repeated question, "Where do you find objective atonement clearly taught in Scripture?
Perhaps I reject those verses supposedly involving OJ, just as you reject the verses supposedly involving limited atonement.

 

[Lamb]

"Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved', is an objective promise apprehended by faith. So, your point?

So Jesus didn't need to die to justify you? All you needed was to believe that there is a Jesus?

You see, you can't have subjective justification if you don't have objective justification.

 

[Josiah]

His perfect obedience satisfies God's justice (includes His punishment at Calvary), his shed blood atones for sin all sufficient for apprehending eternal life through Jesus Christ.

@prism

That's Objective Justification.

Yes, Jesus not only existed, He did something - for "the world" As you now admit.

John 3:16
Hebrews 1:3
John 1:9
2 Corinthians 5:15 and 19
1 Timothy 2:6
Romans 3:22-25
And many more

Jesus DID it.
Faith believes/apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies on that objective reality.

Ephesians 2:8
John 3:16
Romans 3:26
Acts 10:43
Acts 16:31
And so many more Scriptures just like the above.


Cross + faith. It's Jesus - the Cross - His atoning work... and also faith. The first is never missing, the second often is.



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[Albion]

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, reveals righteousness, and His Word agrees with the Spirit, His perfect obedience satisfies God's justice (includes His punishment at Calvary), his shed blood atones for sin all sufficient for apprehending eternal life through Jesus Christ.

I hope you can agree with the little I laid out above, as to cover everything would just be too extensive.

Okay. It's a challenge sometimes to lay out a complicated development for the readers, using only a sentence or two.

However, I thought I found in your post, and in this reply as well as in earlier statements, what appears to be a POV that says the Holy Spirit convinces us of X or reveals something...and that's what makes salvation possible for a fallen species (mankind).

That would not be the understanding held and preached by the Christian churches throughout history. And in a way, it would be like making Faith mean 'Faith in having been saved' rather than 'Faith in what God did to make that possible.'

 

[prism]

So Jesus didn't need to die to justify you? All you needed was to believe that there is a Jesus?

You see, you can't have subjective justification if you don't have objective justification.

As I understand it, subjective justification declares an individual righteous, whereas objective justification declares the world righteous.
Please show me where I ever said, "Jesus didn't need to die for me to be justified" or why do you ask such a question?

 

[prism]

Yes, Jesus not only existed, He did something - for "the world" As you now admit.

Nice try, he did that for His 'elect', not the whole world.

 

[prism]

That would not be the understanding held and preached by the Christian churches throughout history. And in a way, it would be like making Faith mean 'Faith in having been saved' rather than 'Faith in what God did to make that possible.'

It's faith in Christ alone; not sure where you are drumming up what you have drummed up.
It's what makes salvation certain, not possible.

 

[Josiah]

Nice try, he did that for His 'elect', not the whole world.

Yup. Of course. But the Bible NEVER says Jesus died only for the elect. But it DOES state (over and over) that He died for the world. If I state that Jupiter is a planet, that is not proof that ONLY it is a planet (and we're living on a marshmellow, LOL). No one disputes that JEsus died for the elect... that Bible states that! But it also says that He died for all. All is more than elect, but it doesn't contradict elect - it simply reaches wider than that.

But either way, it's still objective justification: Faith is apprehending something Jesus DIED. Now, i work is THERE (objective) and salvic, they can't know if they have faith in something objectively there FOR THEM (it probably isn't).


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[prism]

But either way, it's still objective justification: Faith is apprehending something Jesus DIED. Now, i work is THERE (objective) and salvic, they can't know if they have faith in something objectively there FOR THEM (it probably isn't).

I think my brain turned into a pretzel, trying to read and understand this. Would you please restate this?

 

[Albion]

It's faith in Christ alone; not sure where you are drumming up what you have drummed up.

Consider giving it a rest. Four posts in a row that gaslight your readers is plenty.

 

[prism]

Consider giving it a rest. Four posts in a row that gaslight your readers is plenty.

Give it a rest?
I'm pretty much responding to the posts coming my way. Maybe it would help if we polish our mirror?

 

[Josiah]

I think my brain turned into a pretzel, trying to read and understand this. Would you please restate this?

@prism


1. Faith = to trust, to rely upon, to embrace, to apprehend. The question in personal justification is WHAT? Trusting, claiming WHAT results in the justification to that individual (here and now)?

2. You have suggested trusting in a promise, in the reality of Jesus as a person, in obedience. I've suggested that NONE of those things saves, NONE of those is the Savior, trusting/relying/embracing/apprehending any or all of those would do, well, nothing.

3. Traditional Christianity proclaims and Scripture teaches that JESUS saves - via His incarnation and perfect life, His sacrificial death on the Cross, His resurrection and empty tomb, in history, as an objective, real fact. Via His atoning/justifying work. His work is THERE. It's REAL. It's not a promise (as yet unfulfilled), it's not just Jesus being real, it's not some phantom - no, it's his justifying, atoning work. Jesus DID something. It's REAL, it's there, it exists, it is objective. It is His atoning/justifying work. It's real. It's historic. It's a fact. It's objective. This foundational truth is often called "Objective Justification." Many Scriptures make this very point (although you've not accepted any of them).

4. And it is for all, for everyone, for the world - as the Bible so often, verbatim, boldly, word-for-word states. While the Bible at times says it's "for the Elect" it far more often says for everyone, for all, for the world. Which is Gospel because if it was only for say 10% of the people, we'd have to know the list of names of those 10% or no one could know if their faith is in something FOR THEM (likely, not). To say "for the elect" does not contradict when the BIble says "for all" since "elect" is a subset of "all." We don't have to guess and HOPE against HOPE that we are on the list because the Bible is right when it says He died for all, His atoning work is for all. Thus He died for ME (Cuz I'm part of "all"). There is not one Scripture - and not one Christian voice for some 1600 years - that states, "Jesus died ONLY for the elect, ONLY for some few, and probably not you." But the Bible does state the exact opposite.

5. But this OBJECTIVE REALITY needs to be applied. And the vehicle for that is faith. Thus, it's not JUST the Cross or JUST faith but both. Not either/or but both/and. The atoning work EXISTS whether someone personally embraces it or not, but it doesn't benefit THEM as an individual. That doesn't mean it didn't accomplish anything - Christ would have died if that was the only individual on the planet, it is a priceless treasure gained at GREAT cost for that person. But if it's not received, it's not their possession. I gave you my "pancake illustration." I made pancakes for my boys. Nutritious and delicious pancakes. Their favorite breakfast. They are REAL. They objectively exist. For all of them. But they just sitting there on the table.... unconsumed, uneaten... well, they're missing out, aren't they? Again, as several of us here have tried to explain to you and brightfam52, it's the Cross plus Faith.... the objective atoning/justifying/saving work of Christ PLUS the trust/reliance/embrace/apprehending of the individual.



For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia)... and this caused Him to DO something - something real, objective. For the world.
That He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) who provides to that world His saving, atoning, justifying work (Objective justification)
That whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) those who apprehend HIS objective work for them by faith. Not the "Whosoever"
Has everlasting life. The result. Personal justification. (Subjective justification - justification applied to the individual)
Soli Deo Gloria. God gets all the credit, all the glory because all this is His blessing, His work, His gift, His doing.



I hope that helps.


Josiah



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