I don't find belief to be volitional and I don't understand why the majority does

[Messy]

Except they didn't. According to what they understood from their Scriptures, the Messiah was supposed to accomplish certain things that Jesus did not, among which to bring knowledge of God to everyone on Earth, to bring back the Jews from exile and to rebuild the kingdom.


How did you come to that conclusion? Yes, they did see signs and wonders, but they also had Scripture that said the following:

"1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 13)


The thing is that they were aware that people who worked with demons could also do miracles. Pharaoh's magicians did some sort of magical things, there were all sort of healers from various nations. In light of the clear prophecies about what the Messiah would do, Jesus simply going around doing miracles was not adequate proof for them.

The fact that Jesus always spoke in parables instead of being clear and concise like Moses was might have also contributed to their unbelief.

They understood it wrong and they could have listened if they were humble, but they were proud and God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. There's a rabbi. He said: imagine Jesus did raise from the dead, then when those pharisees saw that, they would be like: oh no, we were wrong and they would have converted and that's one reason why he doesn't believe it. That was the ultimate proof. They got the sign of Jonah.

But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Jesus did raise from the dead, then when those pharisees saw that

They did not see Him raised from the dead. Jesus did not show Himself to them. We can see that in Acts, when the apostles were preaching about Jesus and the Jewish priests were wondering what to do about these people and Gamaliel intervenes.

"38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." (Acts 5:38-39)

Had the Pharisees seen Jesus resurrected, they would probably not have questioned whether it was an act of human origin or of God.

 

[Messy]

They did not see Him raised from the dead. Jesus did not show Himself to them. We can see that in Acts, when the apostles were preaching about Jesus and the Jewish priests were wondering what to do about these people and Gamaliel intervenes.

"38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." (Acts 5:38-39)

Had the Pharisees seen Jesus resurrected, they would probably not have questioned whether it was an act of human origin or of God.

Some knew.
Jesus called them evil and a brood of vipers. If they were some nice sweet ignorant atheists who could be saved, Jesus would have to be evil to keep it from them on purpose. How can you think they were poor sweethearts and Jesus was immoral?

Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone [a]from the door, and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.

11 Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, “Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

How can you think they were poor sweethearts and Jesus was immoral?

I look at the facts written in the Bible, that's how. I have read the New Testament several times, and I have always found issues related to Jesus' behavior. This is one of the things that make my life very difficult.

If they were some nice sweet ignorant atheists who could be saved

They were not atheists. They believed in a God Who gave their forefathers Scriptures with prophecies, and Jesus simply did not fulfill those prophecies. What reason would they have to believe Him?

If the prophecies said that the Messiah had to do a list of things containing a, b, c, d and e, and someone came on the scene and did only a, b and c, and acted very strange like talking in parables and being mysterious, there was ground for questioning his claims.

 

[Messy]

I look at the facts written in the Bible, that's how. I have read the New Testament several times, and I have always found issues related to Jesus' behavior. This is one of the things that make my life very difficult.


They were not atheists. They believed in a God Who gave their forefathers Scriptures with prophecies, and Jesus simply did not fulfill those prophecies. What reason would they have to believe Him?

If the prophecies said that the Messiah had to do a list of things containing a, b, c, d and e, and someone came on the scene and did only a, b and c, and acted very strange like talking in parables and being mysterious, there was ground for questioning his claims.

He did not talk to all of them in parables. Paul was a pharisee and didn't get it at first and he got saved, so why would God treat the other ones differently? He says why. He knew what was in their heart. Paul did it in ignorance.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

He did not talk to all of them in parables. Paul was a pharisee and didn't get it at first and he got saved, so why would God treat the other ones differently? He says why. He knew what was in their heart. Paul did it in ignorance.

Why would any rational being willingly oppose God? What did they have to lose by accepting Jesus as the Messiah?

 

[Messy]

Why would any rational being willingly oppose God? What did they have to lose by accepting Jesus as the Messiah?

Guess they weren't so rational. Pride makes you dumb. They wanted to be honored and they changed the laws. Why? No idea. Money, ppl looking up to you? They did rob the houses of the widows. No rational being would do such a thing either.

 

[rstrats]

I'm not positive that I know what you are driving at...

Sorry, when you said that - "In life, there are all sorts of erroneous beliefs, and no one here is saying that the Holy Spirit placed them into anybody's mind" - I glossed over the word erroneous. And as usual in forums, the topic goes off topic at some point, sometimes as early the first reply. The concern of the OP is with the ability of folks to consciously engender one's beliefs about things.

 

[Lees]

Sorry, when you said that - "In life, there are all sorts of erroneous beliefs, and no one here is saying that the Holy Spirit placed them into anybody's mind" - I glossed over the word erroneous. And as usual in forums, the topic goes off topic at some point, sometimes as early the first reply. The concern of the OP is with the ability of folks to consciously engender one's beliefs about things.

The 'ability of folks to engender one's belief' does not play a role in Christian belief or faith. Scientists and philosophers and secularists all engender their beliefs.

The Christians faith/belief is obtained only by God. God reveals it to him.

Lees

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The Christians faith/belief is obtained only by God. God reveals it to him.

What does God reveal to him?

 

[Lamb]

What does God reveal to him?

The Savior and forgiveness of sins for eternal life.

 

[Lees]

What does God reveal to him?

Just as 'Lamb' said. The truth of Jesus Christ.

(Matt. 16:15-17) "He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou Simon Bar jona : for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Lees

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The Savior and forgiveness of sins for eternal life.

How does He do that?

 

[Albion]

Why would any rational being willingly oppose God?

Well, we all know people who DO!

What did they have to lose by accepting Jesus as the Messiah?

They could easily choose not to accept Jesus as the Messiah for a variety of reasons--not believing the claims made for Jesus, or being persuaded that some other religious leader is the 'real' one, or doubts about the accuracy of Scripture, or doubts about Jesus because of the failings of Christians who supposedly follow Jesus, or a dozen other possible reasons. We all have met people who fall into one or another of these categories.

 

[Albion]

How does He do that?

Divine revelation in the form of the Bible. That's answered in the Bible itself.

I look at the facts written in the Bible, that's how. I have read the New Testament several times,

If so, how is it that your reading of Scripture "missed" some of the key parts of the contents?

 

[rstrats]

Well, we all know people who DO!

They could easily choose not to accept Jesus as the Messiah for a variety of reasons--not believing the claims made for Jesus, or being persuaded that some other religious leader is the 'real' one, or doubts about the accuracy of Scripture, or doubts about Jesus because of the failings of Christians who supposedly follow Jesus, or a dozen other possible reasons. We all have met people who fall into one or another of these categories.

I don't see how your reasons show what a person has to lose by accepting Jesus as the Messiah?

 

[Albion]

I don't see how your reasons show what a person has to lose by accepting Jesus as the Messiah?

And I don't see the sense in asking the question that way. Following that format, we could just as easily have asked what does a person have to lose by believing in the Big Bang model of the universe or the Loch Ness monster (?)

Are we supposed to believe just about anything...so long as it doesn't cost us anything to do so?

But if the question were put this way--what might cause a person not to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, then that would be more meaningful.

 

[rstrats]

And I don't see the sense in asking the question that way.

I was merely commenting on the relevance of your response to the specific question from Lucian.

But if the question were put this way--what might cause a person not to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, then that would be more meaningful.

It would also be a question for a different issue.

 

[rstrats]

Are we supposed to believe just about anything...so long as it doesn't cost us anything to do so?

Is there any implication in that question that you think beliefs can be obtained by simply consciously engendering them?

 

[Albion]

Is there any implication in that question that you think beliefs can be obtained by simply consciously engendering them?

Possibly. And if not, that's what's being said of someone else when the wording is as it originally was presented.