Common Figure of Speech?

rstrats

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Not as we in the Western world today count these things, no. That's why I said "Hebrew usage" is the better way to look at it (and to describe these events).

So you're saying that it was common in Hebrew usage to say that a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a night time could be. What examples do you have to support that assertion?
 

Albion

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''We'' don't count them this way, but the Hebrews counted any part of a day as a "day." Therefore, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are three days.

But you will say that three "nights" are referred to. Yes, Jesus was entombed in the evening, stayed there for the whole of the Saturday following, and then arose early on the third day, quite possibly before dawn.
 

rstrats

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''We'' don't count them this way, but the Hebrews counted any part of a day as a "day."
So if someone back then had said that yesterday they had studied the torah night and day that no one would have thought that at least a part of a night time would have to have been involved?
 
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Stravinsk

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So if someone back then had said that yesterday they had studied the torah night and day that no one would have thought that at least a part of a night time would have to have been involved?

Ask him to site examples of the claim. This commonly asserted apologetic is to my knowledge without any real examples. It's just something Christians say because taking Christ's words literally for "3 days and 3 nights" has obvious issues with the Friday evening, Sunday while it was still dark Death/resurrection time.
 

Albion

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"And he said unto them, Depart yet for three days, then come again to me. And the people departed ... So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again the third day." (1 Kings 12:5 & 12)

and also

"And he said unto them, Come again unto me after three days. And the people departed ... So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me on the third day." (2 Chronicles 10:5 & 12)
 

Stravinsk

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"And he said unto them, Depart yet for three days, then come again to me. And the people departed ... So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again the third day." (1 Kings 12:5 & 12)

and also

"And he said unto them, Come again unto me after three days. And the people departed ... So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me on the third day." (2 Chronicles 10:5 & 12)

It is interesting what your argument is here. "Depart for 3 days" becomes "come again the 3rd day".

It got me thinking how the average Hebrew is going to understand very very basic things like the difference between cardinal and ordinal numbers. Cardinal numbers basically represent quantity, and Ordinal numbers represent position or place. I mean, if 3 actually equals 2, at least sometimes, how would they be, for instance, working out how to build anything? Or how about when to meet: "Depart for 3 hours and then return" all of a sudden means "depart for 2 hours and then return the 3rd hour". Wouldn't they get confused as to whether to depart for 2 hours or 3? Or if a building required 3 stones in this place but only actually 2? "Put 3 stones here" becomes "build up to but exclude the 3rd stone". ???

No no no. Of course they knew the difference between Cardinal and Ordinal numbers in everyday things that involve quantities or position or place.

If the "third day" comes "after 3 days" it must be the 3rd day of the week. Cardinal and Ordinal both satisfied for this expression.
 

Stravinsk

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^^^

I might add here that it's not unreasonable that in 1Kings the statement "Depart for 3 days" is uttered on a Sabbath day, even though I don't see it stated explicitly. The reason for this is the congregation is gathering of course, and Sabbath days were for just that. Everything makes sense this way. The Sabbath day is counted as 1, the first day as 2 in the count, and the second day as 3 in the count...bringing us to..."the 3rd day" (not of the count, but of the week!).
 

Albion

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It is interesting what your argument is here. "Depart for 3 days" becomes "come again the 3rd day".

Let's first correct your misinterpretation. The same speaker instructs people to "Depart for 3 days" and also to return "on the 3rd day."

Their return was not greeted with surprise on the third day and the question asked, "But you were supposed to be gone from here for three days and yet you are here again after only two and a half days!"

You asked for examples, so I gave you several. I didn't make those quotations up; they are indicative of Hebrew thinking and come from an unimpeachable source--the Bible.

If the "point" seemed elusive, it was just this: in ancient Hebrew usage, three days and parts of three days are considered to be the same idea and counted that way...and those quotes, those examples, prove it.

As a result, the customary belief in a Friday Crucifixion with a Sunday Resurrection poses no problems at all.
 
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rstrats

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Stravinsk

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Let's first correct your misinterpretation. The same speaker instructs people to "Depart for 3 days" and also to return "on the 3rd day."
There's no misinterpretation here. We both agree that this is basically what is communicated in your reference.
Their return was not greeted with surprise on the third day and the question asked, "But you were supposed to be gone from here for three days and yet you are here again after only two and a half days!"

Yeah, there's no disagreement here either. Seems like you're trying to set up a straw man but whatever.
You asked for examples, so I gave you several. I didn't make those quotations up; they are indicative of Hebrew thinking and come from an unimpeachable source--the Bible.

What you gave was basically the same example as the passage contested in the Original Post. The word usage is similar with a different context.

What you didn't provide were examples "part of a day=a day" thing applied across the board. There are lots of times and dates in the bible, shouldn't we see this sort of thing elsewhere? Like 10 days = 11 days, or 29 days = 28days and so forth?
If the "point" seemed elusive, it was just this: in ancient Hebrew usage, three days and parts of three days are considered to be the same idea and counted that way...and those quotes, those examples, prove it.

As a result, the customary belief in a Friday Crucifixion with a Sunday Resurrection poses no problems at all.

No, it proves nothing, except that you started from a premise (the one you keep asserting) and found an example of similar wording elsewhere that you think proves something. The only thing that it proves, at least to me, is that you think the Hebrews, who built a temple, who built the ark, who marched around Jericho and did a bunch of other things that would have depended on very basic understanding of ordinal and cardinal numbers, actually didn't. When 2=3 or 3=2, at least sometimes, there's going to be confusion, no matter if the numbers relate to time, to building materials, to people or whatever.

Basically, your theology here calls the ancient Hebrews a confused people who don't understand basic math. Of course it's not just limited to them. Your theology also calls Christ either a liar, or confused about basic math. Because His statement regarding "3 days and 3 nights" and also "the 3rd day" and "after 3 days" are all, on the face of it, contradictory. The ONLY way they actually make sense is that they are all true at the same time, but in some instances the numbers are ordinal, and in others, they are cardinal. But no Christian assumes any of this or thinks about it. It would conflict with their tradition of a bumbling Christ that can't count and doesn't speak the Truth.
 

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rstrats

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I saw somewhere that it was 3 days and 3 nights, but there were 2 sabbaths. One for Passover, a high sabbath and one normal sabbath and then the texts made sense.
That would be an issue for a different topic. Maybe you might start one.
 

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Most Bible scholars seem to feel that the year of Christ's death was AD 33, however, with some opting for the late 20s or AD 30 or AD 31. This theory here, however, has to put it at AD30 in order for the entire explanation outlined in this article to work.
 
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rstrats

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Maybe someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.
 

rstrats

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And remember, the "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.
 

Albion

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And remember, the "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.
Well, what you are referring to is the standard thinking among Christians of all the better-known denominations, and the issue has been studied for centuries, up and down and every other way.
 

rstrats

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Well, what you are referring to is the standard thinking among Christians of all the better-known denominations, and the issue has been studied for centuries, up and down and every other way.
Well, the issue of the topic is the commonality of saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could be. I'm not really familiar with any studies which address that.
 

Albion

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Well, the issue of the topic is the commonality of saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could be. I'm not really familiar with any studies which address that.
Basically, they all account for it, assuming that we're talking about the well-known denominations, whether Catholic or Protestant. I couldn't speak for the position that might be held by some little-known splinter group or cult. You understand.

But personally, I'm not interested in explaining all of that again, on this five-year-old thread, and in the process invite a rehash of something that's been discussed here already. Besides, I'm sure that you can find the same information with a little search online if you choose to do that.
 

rstrats

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