Faith

[Albion]

Or us means us, we christians.

That may well be what he had in mind, yes.

When he says that Faith is something God gives "in order to show his relationship with us," it would seem to exclude non-Christians.

At the same time, such a view of Faith also makes Faith be toothless, nothing more than an emblem, a symbol, or what another poster here called a "by product."

However it gets worded, the Biblical meaning of the term (Faith) is being rejected.

 

[brightfame52]

The Faith of Christ or out of Christ !

All those Christ died for are given a portion or dealt a portion of His Faith, The Faith of the Son of God Gal 2:20

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

By which He in their stead and in their behalf overcome the World Jn 16:33

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Now understand, Jesus statement here is not as a Private Individual Person, but as an Head and Representative of His Church, and the Overcoming Faith that He has, it is communicated to All His Members in the New Birth and so they become overcomer's by their Gift of Faith given them from Him, the faith of the Son of God 1 Jn 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Its easy to see here that the Faith is born of God !

In the original Faith of the Son of God is genitive which means:

For the most part, the genitive is often viewed as the case of possession. In more technical terms one noun in the genitive case helps to qualify another noun by showing its "class" or "kind". The genitive case has more uses than most other cases, but in general a noun in the genitive case helps to limit the scope of another noun by indicating its "kind" or "class".

Greek Nouns (Shorter Definitions)

Thats what Kind of Faith Paul had " Of the Son of God" which is a overcoming Faith !

 

[brightfame52]

They that believed on His Name ! But why ?

Jn 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They that believed on His Name, did so, because #1 It had been given to them to believe on Him for His Sake Phil :29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

And #2 Because they had been born of God. " They were Spiritual offspring

The word born in the greek is γεννάω passive indicative and it means:

I beget, bring forth, give birth to


properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, "begotten."

They were born of God passively in order to believe on His Name, because its commanded 1 Jn 3:23

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now this is True,[ that they were born passively in order to believe on His Name because its commanded] because by nature they would be only of the flesh [not having been born again] and in that condition we cannot ,please God or be subject to His Commands Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law/command of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

And Believing on God's Son is pleasing God 1 Jn 3:2-23

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Who in their right mind can deny that keeping the commandment to believe on the Name of God's Son is pleasing in God's sight from this passage ! Which pleasing man cannot do in the flesh Rom 8:8.

Also Faith is pleasing to God Heb 11:6


6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

But this cannot be done if we are merely in the flesh, Hence, that's why to believe in His Name, one must have been born of God Jn 1:12-13 ! 3

 

[Albion]

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

But this cannot be done if we are merely in the flesh, Hence, that's why to believe in His Name, one must have been born of God Jn 1:12-13 ! 3

That's very different from the doctrine that has been promoted in most of your posts, though.

The idea there has been that faith isn't anything decisive or critically important. It's just a
by-product of predestination because God picked his people before their births and that's all that they need.

 

[brightfame52]

albion

That's very different from the doctrine that has been promoted in most of your posts, though.

No its not, thats just how you see it, and maybe others, however its not

 

[brightfame52]

Zech 12:10 New Birth before Faith !

Zech 12:10

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

It appears clear from this text that faith to look to see the Son Jn 6:40 and godly sorrow unto repentance 2 Cor 7:10, that these are the effects of the Spirit being poured out upon them in regeneration and new birth which we are saved by like stated in Titus 3:5-6

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed [poured] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 3

 

[Albion]

albion



No its not, thats just how you see it, and maybe others, however its not

We "see it" as you have explained it.

After 500 messages on CH from you, most of them on this same topic, your comment here ^ says more about your theology than about how the readers see it.

What is needed now is for you not to "swallow your tongue" once again. This is supposed to be discussion, so explain the following that you wrote IF you didn't mean to say that Faith is only a side effect of a person having already been given eternal life by God through predestination.

"You made it ample clear that you don't believe that one Christ died for is justified before God before they believe...."

"everyone who has an Interest in His Resurrection, have a interest in His Intercession for them at the Right Hand of God, who are already Justified Persons"

 

[brightfame52]

We "see it" as you have explained it.

After 500 messages on CH from you, most of them on this same topic, your comment here ^ says more about your theology than about how the readers see it.

What is needed now is for you not to "swallow your tongue" once again. This is supposed to be discussion, so explain the following that you wrote IF you didn't mean to say that Faith is only a side effect of a person having already been given eternal life by God through predestination.

"You made it ample clear that you don't believe that one Christ died for is justified before God before they believe...."

"everyone who has an Interest in His Resurrection, have a interest in His Intercession for them at the Right Hand of God, who are already Justified Persons"

You entitled to your opinion on what I have explained, but I know it better than you. Post 86, You understand it ?

 

[Albion]

You entitled to your opinion on what I have explained, but I know it better than you. Post 86, You understand it ?

But I don't HAVE an opinion on what you "explained," and that's because you aren't willing to explain what it is, even when we try to lead you by the hand, point by point, so that we could decide.

Probably you can't explain it, and that's the answer, but at least the rest of us gave you every chance.

 

[Messy]

But I don't HAVE an opinion on what you "explained," and that's because you aren't willing to explain what it is, even when we try to lead you by the hand, point by point, so that we could decide.

Probably you can't explain it, and that's the answer, but at least the rest of us gave you every chance.

As far as I understand he explained that Jesus only died for the elect. Those immediately died and rose with Him and are justified and because of that they get faith later in life and before they even repent or get to know Jesus they sit next to Him in heaven.

 

[Albion]

As far as I understand he explained that Jesus only died for the elect.

If so, this would be standard Calvinist thinking.

Those immediately died and rose with Him

How can that be done in the case of anyone who has been born in, say, the past 2000 years...or are we excluded from that salvation? I don't know anyone who died and immediately rose from the grave, if that's what is being said. Or was it that you were referring there only to those who had been born and died prior to Christ's sacrifice?

and are justified and because of that they get faith later in life and before they even repent or get to know Jesus they sit next to Him in heaven.

Something like that, yes. I think that much is part of his thinking, strange and unScriptural as it would be.

Thanks.

 

[Messy]

If so, this would be standard Calvinist thinking.

How can that be done in the case of anyone who has been born in, say, the past 2000 years...or are we excluded from that salvation? I don't know anyone who died and immediately rose from the grave, if that's what is being said. Or was it that you were referring there only to those who had been born and died prior to Christ's sacrifice?

Something like that, yes. I think that much is part of his thinking, strange and unScriptural as it would be.

Thanks.

No also those from now and even those who aren't born yet, because Paul says somewhere that we were reconciled when He died and rose and and that we died and rose with Christ.
He died and rose in the past, so then according to brightfame the elect did too, 2000 years ago, before they're even born.

Paul did say that we died and rose with Him, but to believers and that it happened with baptism. I think it's just that the sin nature we got from Adam died with Him, but only when you believe that it has effect.

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive to God​

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be [a]done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been [b]freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, [c]reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


He died to sin once for all. Not only some elect.


Reckon yourselves dead. Else it's no use, if you believe you're a sinner and have to keep sinning.

This is what a guy on christian forums preached. He was addicted to porn for 30 years as a christian and he had even been a pastor. He fasted and prayed, but he was a slave to sin. Eventually he gave up and said: God I can't do it. I can't live holy. And then God said: With this my son I am well pleased. He knew all along that he couldn't do it. Then he had to read Romans 6. He had to confess that he died and rose with Christ and he believed it and was set free.

 

[Albion]

No also those from now and even those who aren't born yet, because Paul says somewhere that we were reconciled when He died and rose and and that we died and rose with Christ.

...which is always taken to mean that we rise with him in a spiritual sense, not that it's something physical like many people picture in their minds concerning the Rapture.

And of course the meaning is spiritual, since it says that we died with Christ (yet we were not living at the time of the Crucifixion and, also, we are still alive in the flesh reading this) as well as saying that we rose with Christ.

He died and rose in the past, so then according to brightfame the elect did too, 2000 years ago, before they're even born.

Yes, something like that is what I thought he meant, even if it doesn't make literal sense. Why he was afraid to confirm it, I cannot say.

Paul did say that we died and rose with Him, but to believers and that it happened with baptism.

 

[Messy]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.chapellibrary.org/pdf/books/keoh.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi6wdvuodf-AhWisKQKHZl2CEkQFnoECCAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3KlKVZMUh77v55fAV1SnP5

THE HYPER-CALVINIST HARDSHELL HERESY WITH WHICH WE ARE DEALING

The particular error that we are now endeavoring to refute is the teaching of Hyper-Calvinists, or
“Hardshells,” that the Spirit of God imparts spiritual life apart from, without, or before the use of any means of revealing Christ to the sinner.

It is because of this position that Hyper-Calvinists deny the Gospel or Word of God any place in a sinner's being made alive to God. It is this teaching which leads Hyper-Calvinists to deny the necessity and propriety of preaching the Gospel to spiritually lost sinners. They say that the giving of life is done by the Spirit apart from the use of any kind of a medium of revelation. The Gospel, they say, is of use only to those who have already been given spiritual life at some time previous to their hearing the Gospel preached.

We assert that the Hyper-Calvinist idea of spiritual life is not the spiritual life referred to in the Word of God, nor does the Spirit of God give any such life to men.

 

[Albion]

Could be. I didn't think he was talking about "Hyper-Calvinism," but maybe it was a clumsy effort to do just that.

 

[brightfame52]

But I don't HAVE an opinion on what you "explained," and that's because you aren't willing to explain what it is, even when we try to lead you by the hand, point by point, so that we could decide.

Probably you can't explain it, and that's the answer, but at least the rest of us gave you every chance.

To be honest, it doesnt matter if you have an opinion or not

 

[Albion]

To be honest, it doesnt matter if you have an opinion or not

In this case, that's true. The claims of a semiliterate member who, after hundreds of posts, hasn't been able to explain the sole idea he's been working on is enough in itself to decide the issue, regardless of what the rest of us might have guessed you were trying to say.

 

[brightfame52]

In this case, that's true. The claims of a semiliterate member who, after hundreds of posts, hasn't been able to explain the sole idea he's been working on is enough in itself to decide the issue, regardless of what the rest of us might have guessed you were trying to say.

Post 86 Did you understand it ? Lets discuss it

 

[Messy]

-

 

[brightfame52]

Do you believe this?:

1689 London Confession – Ripley Primitive Baptist Church

Chapter 11​

JUSTIFICATION​

11.1 Those whom God effectually calls he also freely justifies.1 He does this, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting them as righteous,2 not for anything done in them or by them, but for Christ’s sake alone.3 They are not justified because God imputes4 as their righteousness either their faith itself, or the act of believing, or any other act of obedience to the gospel. They are justified by God imputing Christ’s active obedience to the whole law and his passive obedience in death. By faith they receive and rest on his righteousness, and this faith they do no have of themselves for it is the gift of God.5


11.2 Faith which receives and rests on Christ and his righteousness is the sole instrument of justification.1 Yet it is never alone in the person justified, but is always accompanied by all the other saving graces; it is not a dead faith, for it functions by love.2


11.3 By his obedience and death, Christ fully discharged the debt of all those who are justified. By his sacrifice in the blood of his cross, he underwent in their place the penalty due to them, so making an appropriate, real, and full satisfaction of God’s justice on their behalf.1 Yet their justification is entirely of free grace, because he was given by the Father for them,2 and his obedience and satisfaction was accepted in their place,3 both actions being done freely, and not because of anything in them.4 So both the exact justice and the rich grace of God are glorified in the justification of sinners.5


11.4 From all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect,1 and Christ in the fullness of time died for their sins, and rose again for their justification.2 Nevertheless they are not justified personally until the Holy Spirit in due time actually applies Christ to them.3


11.5 God continues to forgive the sins of those who are justified;1 and although they can never fall from the state of justification,2 yet they may fall under God’s fatherly displeasure because of their sins. In that condition they will not usually have fellowship with God3 restored to them until they humble themselves, confess their sins, ask for pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.4


11.6 The justification of believers under the Old Testament was in all these respects exactly the same as the justification of believers under the New Testament.1

Post 86 Did you read it and understand it ?