Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[brightfame52]

I did not rise with Him justified in 28 or 33 AD. I can't remember ever having seen a text that says that. It didn't happen then. Jesus was not literally slain before the foundation of the earth.

Romans 6
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be [a]done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been [b]freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

First to be born from the dead. The rest comes after Him.

1 Corinthians 15

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

But this is about getting a new body. You get a new spirit when you repent.

Romans 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

So before I got saved I was not His yet and I hadn't gotten a new spirit yet and although I died with Christ 2000 years ago, it wasn't in effect before I got saved. I was the old man.

The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

He could only give me life when I asked Him to come into my life and forgive my sins. Not before that. If it all happened instantly for the elect, the elect would have been born holy with an immortal body.

So its obvious you dont accept that people who Christ died for, died with Him and through His death for them were Justified, when He rose, it was for /because of their Justification befor God Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

 

[Messy]

So its obvious you dont accept that people who Christ died for, died with Him and through His death for them were Justified, when He rose, it was for /because of their Justification befor God Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

Yes it only says He was raised, not that we were raised with Him in the past. The ones who were raised immediately with Him were the O.T. saints.

Matthew 27:53 NKJV​

and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes it only says He was raised, not that we were raised with Him in the past. The ones who were raised immediately with Him were the O.T. saints.

Matthew 27:53 NKJV​

and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Rom 4:25 says He was raised for our Justification

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[Messy]

Rom 4:25 says He was raised for our Justification

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

For our, meaning so that we would be justified in the future. It doesnt say we were justified then, like it says He bore our sins then.
You mean He removed them then, like the scapegoat? Bore away. Yes but they were there when we were sinners and were only really removed when we believed.

Sounds like you see justification as God seeing it as if we never sinned and I believe justification is that He really removes our sin and not as if, while nothing changes. It says righteousness shall be imputed to us who believe. Not it has been imputed to us when Christ rose from the dead.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

 

[Messy]

Imagine God elected someone. Lets call him X. X lives on an island and has never heard the Gospel. God tells Y to go to the island and share the Gospel, but X's friend Z kills him and he never hears the Gospel. X gets sick and almost dies. Is X justified and will he go to heaven automatically or does A have to at least pray that God sends him an angel to tell him the Gospel, so he can get justified before he dies?

 

[Messy]

If Jesus only died for the elect and only the elect died and rose with Him, explain this text:

Jude 1
12 These are [a]spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried [b]about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

How can they be twice dead? They died and rose with Christ, got saved for a while and went back into the world.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [a]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[brightfame52]

For our, meaning so that we would be justified in the future. It doesnt say we were justified then, like it says He bore our sins then.
You mean He removed them then, like the scapegoat? Bore away. Yes but they were there when we were sinners and were only really removed when we believed.

Sounds like you see justification as God seeing it as if we never sinned and I believe justification is that He really removes our sin and not as if, while nothing changes. It says righteousness shall be imputed to us who believe. Not it has been imputed to us when Christ rose from the dead.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Again, He was delivered for [because of] our sins, and He was raised again for [because of] our Justification. See Christs resurrection is a testification that all for whom sins He died, their sins being put away, they are Justified before God. Now do you deny the testimony of the resurrection of Jesus Christ ?

 

[brightfame52]

If Jesus only died for the elect and only the elect died and rose with Him, explain this text:

Jude 1
12 These are [a]spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried [b]about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

How can they be twice dead? They died and rose with Christ, got saved for a while and went back into the world.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [a]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

You are not teachable, I have been explaining things already and you reject it.

 

[Messy]

-

 

[Albion]

You are not teachable, I have been explaining things already and you reject it.

You weren't referring to me there, but I wondered about that conclusion.

It took only a few minutes to find all kinds of commentaries online from people who know what they're talking about. For example, there's this commentary (a tiny part of the article on Biblehub.org)--

"The phrase, 'twice dead,' may mean no more than 'utterly dead.'The point, however, is rather this - that they are dead, not only in respect of barrenness - which is a death in life - but in respect of the extinction of all vitality...."

...and just imagine what any of us would find if we spent a few more minutes looking at some of the other commentaries from Bible experts that are available!

 

[Messy]

You weren't referring to me there, but I wondered about that conclusion.

It took only a few minutes to find all kinds of commentaries online from people who know what they're talking about. For example, there's this commentary (a tiny part of the article on Biblehub.org)--

"The phrase, 'twice dead,' may mean no more than 'utterly dead.'The point, however, is rather this - that they are dead, not only in respect of barrenness - which is a death in life - but in respect of the extinction of all vitality...."

...and just imagine what any of us would find if we spent a few more minutes looking at some of the other commentaries from Bible experts that are available!

I saw that John Wesley came up with the same text. I already thought once saved always saved and calvinism made no sense, because of these texts.

John Wesley on Calvinism, Once Saved Always Saved, and Conditional Security

“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thor…

biblicaltruthresources.wordpress.com

John Wesley on Calvinism, Once Saved Always Saved, and Conditional Security

“People who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect such great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace”; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.” Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!”

 

[brightfame52]

You weren't referring to me there, but I wondered about that conclusion.

It took only a few minutes to find all kinds of commentaries online from people who know what they're talking about. For example, there's this commentary (a tiny part of the article on Biblehub.org)--

"The phrase, 'twice dead,' may mean no more than 'utterly dead.'The point, however, is rather this - that they are dead, not only in respect of barrenness - which is a death in life - but in respect of the extinction of all vitality...."

...and just imagine what any of us would find if we spent a few more minutes looking at some of the other commentaries from Bible experts that are available!

Okay, I put time into post 359 explaining that point, do you care to discuss it ? Its in line with the thread heading.

 

[Albion]

Okay, I put time into post 359 explaining that point, do you care to discuss it ? Its in line with the thread heading.

I took a look, and you tried to be methodical. However, your claim appeared to be only a personal opinion, a possible explanation.

For you then to post that somebody who might not agree with your thinking, as though there simply could not be any other meaning...well, that was eye-catching, all right.

 

[brightfame52]

I took a look, and you tried to be methodical. However, your claim appeared to be only a personal opinion, a possible explanation.

For you then to post that somebody who might not agree with your thinking, as though there simply could not be any other meaning...well, that was eye-catching, all right.

So do you want to discuss it ?

 

[brightfame52]

Justification an act of God's Grace ! 2


#2 Those whom Christ was made sin for, by imputation, having their sins charged to Him as their Surety, they as He was for them, Justified at His Resurrection, or we can say at their Resurrection with Him ! This is True because of the testimony Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

Folks this scripture alone should silence all opposers to the Truth of Justification before God of those Christ died for before Faith ! The testimony of the Truth is right here !

When Jesus Christ was vindicated by the Resurrection from the dead, it was not as a private person for himself, but for those whose offences he was delivered for , those of His Body the Church See Eph 5:25 !

Paul goes into some detail about this relationship in Rom 5:12ff, and then he writes in Rom 6:4

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

That's because they were also raised up together with Him by the Glory of the Father by Union with Him, so again Christ was not raised up as an private individual, but as a federal head representative, OT Prophecy predicted this Union of Christ and His members in Union at His Resurrection Isa 26:19

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Now just as Christ was delivered up for their offences, and not his personally, so likewise, His resurrection from the dead as proof of His being Justified, was not for His own personal Justification, but of those whom's offences He was delivered for !

Again, this condemns all who teach that man must exercise faith in Christ to be Justified from all sin before God's Law and Justice, for that is just not so , and it detracts from the death of Christ's accomplishment and calls the Resurrection of Him a Lie !

9

 

[Albion]

Again, this condemns all who teach that man must exercise faith in Christ to be Justified from all sin before God's Law and Justice, for that is just not so

Your opinion only.

, and it detracts from the death of Christ's accomplishment and calls the Resurrection of Him a Lie !

Not in the least does trusting in the monumental accomplishment of Christ at Calvary "detract" from its importance or call "the Resurrection of Him a lie." LOL

Having Faith necessarily means recognizing the greatest act of love possible--God humbling himself for the sake of his own, disobedient, creatures!--AND it also means acknowledging that we mortals are incapable of saving ourselves!

 

[brightfame52]

Your opinion only.

Not in the least does trusting in the monumental accomplishment of Christ at Calvary "detract" from its importance or call "the Resurrection of Him a lie." LOL

Having Faith necessarily means recognizing the greatest act of love possible--God humbling himself for the sake of his own, disobedient, creatures!--AND it also means acknowledging that we mortals are incapable of saving ourselves!

It detracts because it is believed that people Christ died for, remain lost in their sins.

 

[Messy]

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[Messy]

It detracts because it is believed that people Christ died for, remain lost in their sins.

God showed Lester Sumrall I think it was ppl in hell and said that will happen if you don't go preach to them and that was his calling and thousands got saved.

 

[brightfame52]

God showed Lester Sumrall I think it was ppl in hell and said that will happen if you don't go preach to them and that was his calling and thousands got saved.

Not interested. Im concerned that people believe and teach that people Christ died for, still remain unjust and can eventually die in their sins that He died to redeem them from. That means they give zero effect to Christs redeeming death.