Faith

[brightfame52]

Yes, that is the subject (the Just shall live by Faith).

Many people have come to faith over the years through hearing the Gospel preached, but folks who want to believe in predestination and limited atonement choose to add that faith was just assigned to them while other people who heard and believed had already been excluded.

Worse, predestinarians cite Bible passages such as the ones you used as proof of the "elect" even though those verses do not in any way support that doctrine.

So how does one become Just according to Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Albion]

So how does one become Just according to Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Did you notice that there is no special select group referred to in the words you highlighted??

Certainly, the sacrifice of the cross made possible the salvation of "many," but there is nothing about "only those whom God had preordained" or "and all of these are of the group God designated before their births" or anything of the sort.

And there is one more thing. The complete sentence, not just the part you chose to highlight, states the following: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

So that is saying that just as "X" happened, in like manner "Y" then also happened. It's a parallel.

And what does the first part state? It's that "many" were made sinners by Adam's sin. In other words, "many" means EVERYONE in that case. If there is a parallel--and there is--we are informed by that verse that all of mankind was redeemed by the Cross (which doesn't mean that every person is permanently guaranteed to be saved, but that everyone has been given a chance).

 

[brightfame52]

Did you notice that there is no special select group referred to in the words you highlighted??

Certainly, the sacrifice of the cross made possible the salvation of "many," but there is nothing about "only those whom God had preordained" or "and all of these are of the group God designated before their births" or anything of the sort.

And there is one more thing. The complete sentence, not just the part you chose to highlight, states the following: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

So that is saying that just as "X" happened, in like manner "Y" then also happened. It's a parallel.

And what does the first part state? It's that "many" were made sinners by Adam's sin. In other words, "many" means EVERYONE in that case. If there is a parallel--and there is--we are informed by that verse that all of mankind was redeemed by the Cross (which doesn't mean that every person is permanently guaranteed to be saved, but that everyone has been given a chance).

According to Rom 5:19 how shall they many be made righteous ? Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And whats the promise made to the righteous, just ?

 

[Albion]

According to Rom 5:19 how shall they many be made righteous ? Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And whats the promise made to the righteous, just ?

It looks to me, judging from this and other of your replies, that you don't appreciate that mankind had no chance while under the Law, but that this situation was lifted by the sacrifice of the Cross and...

that sacrifice made mankind in general eligible for eternal life.

It's understood that even the great figures of the Old Testament like Moses and Noah were not in heaven at the time, expressly because they had to wait for the Savior. In Scripture, they were in what's called the Bosom of Abraham, from which they were released when Christ made his sacrifice.

As for the rest of mankind, they/we are given the chance to be saved, but that's where Faith enters in. Some will believe and come to Faith and others will not. So it's not a matter of lost vs saved, one or the other, with nothing else to consider.

Rather, the process is (1) lost, (2) but salvation is offered--to be accepted or rejected--and (3) Faith is the vehicle that makes the difference. Some who could be heaven-bound will believe, but others will not believe.

 

[brightfame52]

It looks to me, judging from this and other of your replies, that you don't appreciate that mankind had no chance while under the Law, but that this situation was lifted by the sacrifice of the Cross and...

that sacrifice made mankind in general eligible for eternal life.

It's understood that even the great figures of the Old Testament like Moses and Noah were not in heaven at the time, expressly because they had to wait for the Savior. In Scripture, they were in what's called the Bosom of Abraham, from which they were released when Christ made his sacrifice.

As for the rest of mankind, they/we are given the chance to be saved, but that's where Faith enters in. Some will believe and come to Faith and others will not. So it's not a matter of lost vs saved, one or the other, with nothing else to consider.

Rather, the process is (1) lost, (2) but salvation is offered--to be accepted or rejected--and (3) Faith is the vehicle that makes the difference. Some who could be heaven-bound will believe, but others will not believe.

Again, whats the promise made to the Just/Righteous ? Rom 1:17

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Albion]

The Just shall live by Faith. Therefore, we know that Faith is the active ingredient (and the indispensable ingredient) in the salvation of any who are going to find eternal life. And as for those who are not heaven-bound? They are the people who do not believe, do not have Faith, meaning that they weren't excluded from the promises of God but then did not accept Christ.

Saving Faith is not just an incidental characteristic of those who were picked to be saved from before their births. Yet that is very much the way that predestinarians--those who believe that Jesus died only for a select and predetermined few--think of it.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith and Repentance Two sides of same coin !

That Repentance [a change of mind] and Faith [believing the Truth as it is revealed or made known] are of the same Essence / Substance, for this is shown here 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

That is repentance from God is unto discerning and acknowledging the Truth or belief of the Truth or Faith in it ! See Eph 1:13

Paul writes in Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Faith acknowledges God's Truth, which is what 2 Tim 2:25 means !

So in the Evangelical sense, this Repentance in Lk 24:47; Acts 5:31,11:18,17:30,20:21 is unto Faith or belief or acknowledgment of the Truth !

And Both must come from God 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Neither Faith or Repentance comes from within the Natural man as false teachers teach ! 2

 

[brightfame52]

The Just shall live by Faith. Therefore, we know that Faith is the active ingredient (and the indispensable ingredient) in the salvation of any who are going to find eternal life. And as for those who are not heaven-bound? They are the people who do not believe, do not have Faith, meaning that they weren't excluded from the promises of God but then did not accept Christ.

Saving Faith is not just an incidental characteristic of those who were picked to be saved from before their births. Yet that is very much the way that predestinarians--those who believe that Jesus died only for a select and predetermined few--think of it.

The Just are those Christ died for, and its promised they shall live by Faith. When God says something shall happen its been predestined by Him to happen as He promised.

 

[Albion]

The Just are those Christ died for,

and its promised they shall live by Faith.

...which, I think, is a part of the process that's eluding you. It's not that they are destined to be saved and, as a result of that, they will automatically also get Faith, like having a seat if you've already been allowed to board the airplane.

The meaning is rather that those who do come to Faith (which is referred to many times in Scripture) will live because of having come to that Faith which was made possible--but not guaranteed--for every person as a result of the forgiveness obtained and offered through the sacrifice of the Cross.

 

[brightfame52]

...which, I think, is a part of the process that's eluding you. It's not that they are destined to be saved and, as a result of that, they will automatically also get Faith, like having a seat if you've already been allowed to board the airplane.

The meaning is rather that those who do come to Faith (which is referred to many times in Scripture) will live because of having come to that Faith which was made possible--but not guaranteed--for every person as a result of the forgiveness obtained and offered through the sacrifice of the Cross.

So predestination of some is true, for not all are going to be Justified and given Faith.

 

[Albion]

So predestination of some is true, for not all are going to be Justified and given Faith.

But if ALL have been made eligible and are free to believe in and trust Christ, it isn't predestination that explains how it is that some come to Faith and are saved while others do not.

So, ARE all mortals eligible for eternal life through Faith? You've already been shown dozens of Bible verses which are explicit in saying that it's so.

 

[brightfame52]

But if ALL have been made eligible and are free to believe (or not), then it isn't predestination that explains how some come to Faith and are saved while others do not.

I never heard of what you talking about. Again, the Just shall live by Faith, and who and how are people made Just ? I have went over this with you a few times alreay.

 

[Albion]

I never heard of what you talking about.

Even though you are an adherent and avid student of the Christian religion...and even though the great majority of Christians belong to churches that believe what I've tried to explain to you here...you say you've never heard of any of what I've presented to you? You never encountered any of that??

That seems hard to believe, even if you responded by personally disagreeing with all of them and with all the Bible verses that teach something other than what you profess.

Again, the Just shall live by Faith, and who and how are people made Just ? I have went over this with you a few times alreay.

You did; but your reaction to what I explained in my posts (and those of other members) was mainly to repeat what you'd already posted, most often "the just shall live by faith" which is not in dispute by either of us.

 

[brightfame52]

Even though you are an adherent and avid student of the Christian religion...and even though the great majority of Christians belong to churches that believe what I've tried to explain to you here...you say you've never heard of any of what I've presented to you? You never encountered any of that??

That seems hard to believe, even if you responded by personally disagreeing with all of them and with all the Bible verses that teach something other than what you profess.

You did; but your reaction to what I explained in my posts (and those of other members) was mainly to repeat what you'd already posted, most often "the just shall live by faith" which is not in dispute by either of us.

When God says something shall occur, Its sure because He determined it to happen, He causes it to happen.

 

[Albion]

When God says something shall occur, Its sure because He determined it to happen, He causes it to happen.

Okay, but we both believe that the just shall live by faith. That never was in question, so I have to conclude that we're done here.

 

[Josiah]

Saving Faith is not just an incidental characteristic of those who were picked to be saved from before their births. Yet that is very much the way that predestinarians--those who believe that Jesus died only forth d a select and predetermined few--think of it.

Friend,

Most who accept predestination (Lutherans tend to refer to this as "Election in Justification") do not believe that Jesus died for only some unknown few. Predestination and "limited atonement" are two entirely different teachings.

When God says something shall occur Its sure because He determined it to happen, He causes it to happen.

Friend, you are confusing foreknowledge with predestination. They are two entirely different things. God KNOWS everything (it's a divine attribute) but that does not mean He wills and causes all things to happen.



.

 

[brightfame52]

Okay, but we both believe that the just shall live by faith. That never was in question, so I have to conclude that we're done here.

Well if you believe that, the Just shall live by Faith, you to be consistent must believe some are predestinated to Faith and some are not, Im sure you realize some people will never become believers.

 

[Albion]

Well if you believe that, the Just shall live by Faith, you to be consistent must believe some are predestinated to Faith and some are not,

No. What I believe "the just shall live by Faith" means is that those who have accepted the Lord will find eternal life because of that Faith, not because of their good works, good intentions, or something else. There's nothing inconsistent in that.

 

[brightfame52]

No. What I believe "the just shall live by Faith" means is that those who have accepted the Lord will find eternal life because of that Faith, not because of their good works, good intentions, or something else. There's nothing inconsistent in that.

Yeah, what you believe is different from what I believe.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith and Hope are of the same Essence !

That Faith and Hope are of the same Essence or Substance, hope being born out of Faith, the Expectation of what Faith Reveals and causes Trust, well this is seen here 1 Pet 1:21

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Now notice how this purpose [of faith and hope in God] follows the fact of God's raising Christ from the dead [ His Resurrection See Vs 3] God gave Him Glory, so that they [to whom Peter was writing] would have Faith and Hope in God. This is the same referred to earlier in Vs 3 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Being begotten again unto a Lively Hope by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, so a Believers Faith and Hope is directly connected to and resultive of Christ's Resurrection from the Dead and His Glory.

Paul said in Eph 1:12

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

In other words, its to the Praise of Christ's Glory whenever one Trust's in Him for Salvation !