Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

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Albion

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That's right, those who are forgiven of their sins, the penalty gone, then they stand before God as though they never sinned, because of Christ. They are guiltless and sinless before God's Law and Justice, and that constitutes Justification before God without them believing, but solely by Christ's Death alone !

I don't know of a single Christian church that believes such a notion, which bit of reality should give anyone dealing with this controversy a moment's pause. But of course there are always "lone wolf" Christians who 1) have read the Bible and 2) own a dictionary...so they have figured out what the whole of Christianity over the course of 2000 years missed.
 
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brightfame52

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I don't know of a single Christian church that believes such a notion, which bit of reality should give anyone dealing with this controversy a moment's pause. But of course there are always "lone wolf" Christians who 1) have read the Bible and 2) own a dictionary...so they have figured out what the whole of Christianity over the course of 2000 years missed.
Im not asking you about any church, but what saith the scripture. How were they born again according to 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
 

Albion

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Im not asking you about any church, but what saith the scripture. How were they born again according to 1 Pet 1:3
That's not my point. The point was that what you laid out for us is a personal theory and nothing that any significant branch of Christianity, whether current or historic, Catholic or Protestant, has agreed with.

That fact is simply being noted. Other readers may have different reactions.
 
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brightfame52

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That's not my point. The point was that what you laid out for us is a personal theory and nothing that any significant branch of Christianity, whether current or historic, Catholic or Protestant, has agreed with.

That fact is simply being noted. Other readers may have different reactions.
Okay whatever.
 

Messy

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I don't know of a single Christian church that believes such a notion, which bit of reality should give anyone dealing with this controversy a moment's pause. But of course there are always "lone wolf" Christians who 1) have read the Bible and 2) own a dictionary...so they have figured out what the whole of Christianity over the course of 2000 years missed.
I know lots of churches that believe that, but I don't. They always say God sees us as holy. Our spirit has become holy at rebirth, but in Revelation God clearly sees what's wrong and says repent, not that He sees everyone as holy and perfect as Jesus.
 

Albion

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I know lots of churches that believe that,
The reference was to this statement: "They are guiltless and sinless before God's Law and Justice, and that constitutes Justification before God without them believing, but solely by Christ's Death alone."

Are you saying that you know "lots of churches that believe" that there are people who have been saved or will be saved who neither have Faith in Christ as Lord and Savior nor have lived a Godly life?? Just for fun, would you name a few of them?
 

Messy

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The reference was to this statement: "They are guiltless and sinless before God's Law and Justice, and that constitutes Justification before God without them believing, but solely by Christ's Death alone."

Are you saying that you know "lots of churches that believe" that there are people who have been saved or will be saved who neither have Faith in Christ as Lord and Savior nor have lived a Godly life?? Just for fun, would you name a few of them?
Lol oops no I've never heard that one.
 

brightfame52

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God Justifeth the Ungodly !

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is True, but not all who are ungodly, but only for those ungodly ones Christ died for the Elect.

Rom 5:6

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

And this is True of the Ungodly that Christ died for, that they were Justified while being Ungodly, because they were Justified by Christ's Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Yes by nature the Elect they are just like other men, ungodly law breakers, guilty sinners, but they are made just solely by the obedience / blood of Christ Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So basically Rom 5:9 and Vs 19b teach the same thing, Justification / made Righteous solely by the obedience / blood of Christ !

By His Death alone, those He died for, have been cleared of all charges, acquitted of all accusations the Law could charge them with, hence free from all Divine Condemnation Rom 8:33-34, and all this while being Ungodly, sinners, and enemies ! 7
 

brightfame52

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Justification by Grace Alone !

Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its this Truth, not Justification by Faith alone, but Justification by Grace alone that is the foundation of the Gospel Preaching. Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

That word freely means undeservedly,and not until this Truth is testified to faithfully, no Gospel of God's Grace has been preached and believed.

Yes being freely Justified by His Election of Grace Rom 11:5-7, apart from anything done by the sinner, not his faith, repentance, accepting a gift, nothing done or determined by man !
 

brightfame52

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Christ resurrection declares Justification !

The Lord Jesus Christ in His Resurrection from the dead declares those He died for Justified before they themselves believe. Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

25 Who was betrayed and put to death because of our misdeeds and was raised to secure our justification (our acquittal), [making our account balance and absolving us from all guilt before God].AMP

25 Jesus was ·given to die [handed/delivered over; 8:32] ·for [because of] our ·sins [violations; transgressions], and he was raised from the dead ·to make us right with God [for our justification; or to confirm our justification].EXB

Now the Lord Jesus Christ as the Head of His Church which is comprised of both OT and NT Believers, the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29, He was made to be sin for them, or was delivered for their offences, and punished for them to complete satisfaction of Divine Justice, then as He arose from the dead, it [The Resurrection] declared them Justified and it is finished and accomplished for them. He Himself was Justified from all sin [That had been laid upon Him] and so they as His Body, He as their Head, were also Justified in Him Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.


But with the Lord’s help, the ·people [descendants; offspring; seed] of Israel
will be ·found to be good [justified; vindicated; or victorious],
and they will ·praise [boast/glory in] him.EXB

Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified,.... All the spiritual Israel of God, whether Jews or Gentiles; all the spiritual seed and offspring of Christ, to whom he stands in the relation of the, everlasting Father and federal Head; these being given to him, and being in him, are justified in him from all things; and these, all and everyone, shall be brought to see their need of his righteousness, and look to him for it, and receive it from him by faith; and be manifestatively justified in their own consciences, as they will be openly at the bar of God, before angels and men, hereafter. The Targum is,

""in" or by the Word of the Lord all the seed of Israel shall be justified:'

and shall glory; in Christ, as the Lord their righteousness; not in themselves, in their own righteousness, holiness, wisdom, and strength, but in this, that Christ is made to them wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, 1 Corinthians 1:30.
John Gill
 

brightfame52

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All for whom Christ died are Justified before God by His Death alone, because by His death for them, His blood shed for them,which is the same as His death for them, it makes them Holy, and if Holy, then Justified, and this is true because of this Truth Heb 13:12

Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered [died] without the gate.

This word sanctify means :

to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God

a) consecrate things to God

b) dedicate people to God

3) to purify

a) to cleanse externally

b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin

c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

Notice ALSO that His Death ensures their renewing of the soul, which is this Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

But the writer of Hebrews here in Heb 13:12 means:

"the expiation of the guilt of sin, which Christ has fully took away; complete pardon being procured, and a perfect righteousness brought in:"

All for whom He died are freed/Justified from sin by His Body Rom 6:7

7 For he that is dead [with Christ] is freed from sin.

This word freed means:

to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

All for whom Christ died is dead . In fact, in the greek it reads " having died"

That occurred [having died] when He died for all 2 Cor 5:14

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

The greek reads " then all died"

2 Cor 5:14

14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;

Its the same principle, as when adam died, all for whom He represented died, and so all for whom Christ represented, when He died, they died.

And this being the case, they are freed or Justified from sin. That is what His Resurrection declares of all for whom offences He died Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

So Rom 4:25 here and Rom 6:7 teach the same thing, Justification before God from all sin by Christ's Death alone !

This also is the same as was prophesied to occur based upon His Covenant Death Lk 1:74-75

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Also Heb 10:10 confirms that Christ's Death alone Sanctified forever, all those He was delivered in behalf of !

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God

a) consecrate things to God

b) dedicate people to God

3) to purify

a) to cleanse externally

b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin

c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul
 

Albion

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All for whom Christ died are Justified before God by His Death alone, because by His death for them, His blood shed for them,which is the same as His death for them, it makes them Holy, and if Holy, then Justified, and this is true because of this Truth Heb 13:12

Nope. There is no way around the Bible's teaching that the person has to be presented with the Gospel.

If he then is moved to believe, great...but Faith is necessary and it doesn't just come over you like a warm fuzzy feeling minus any information about Jesus Christ, his identity, and his saving work on the Cross or as a brainstorm received from "out of the blue" as a big surprise.
 

brightfame52

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Nope. There is no way around the Bible's teaching that the person has to be presented with the Gospel.

If he then is moved to believe, great...but Faith is necessary and it doesn't just come over you like a warm fuzzy feeling minus any information about Jesus Christ, his identity, and his saving work on the Cross or as a brainstorm received from "out of the blue" as a big surprise.
Oh Yeah, lest you dont believe in the sanctifying death of Christ.
 

Albion

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Oh Yeah, lest you dont believe in the sanctifying death of Christ.
Or,..you don't understand that the sanctifying death of Christ wasn't the issue there.

Had Christ not died in order to make all of mankind eligible for salvation, there wouldn't be any talk about the role of Faith at all. But because Christ DID pay for the sins of men, Faith (in Him) comes into play. Those who come to Faith after the sacrifice of the Cross was accomplished will be saved and those who do not, won't be.
 

brightfame52

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Or,..you don't understand that the sanctifying death of Christ wasn't the issue there.

Had Christ not died in order to make all of mankind eligible for salvation, there wouldn't be any talk about the role of Faith at all. But because Christ DID pay for the sins of men, Faith (in Him) comes into play. Those who come to Faith after the sacrifice of the Cross was accomplished will be saved and those who do not, won't be.
Christs death sanctified them He died for, permanently.
 

Albion

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Christs death sanctified them He died for, permanently.
I am not offended that you believe that or that you want to tell me that you do. However, that view flies in the face of innumerable New Testament verses saying the opposite, including those that convey to us what Jesus himself had to say about it.
 

brightfame52

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I am not offended that you believe that or that you want to tell me that you do. However, that view flies in the face of innumerable New Testament verses saying the opposite, including those that convey to us what Jesus himself had to say about it.
Yes I believe it because the scripture testifies to it Heb 10:9-10

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

In fact they are saved and sanctified by His Death !
 

Albion

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10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
This ^ means that Jesus's offering of his body was done once for all mankind. Humanity was reconciled to God be the sacrifice of the Cross.

But that doesn't mean everyone who has ever lived or will live is guaranteed to go to heaven!

Faith is the vehicle by which sins committed afterwards are forgiven.
 

brightfame52

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This ^ means that Jesus's offering of his body was done once for all mankind. Humanity was reconciled to God be the sacrifice of the Cross.

But that doesn't mean everyone who has ever lived or will live is guaranteed to go to heaven!

Faith is the vehicle by which sins committed afterwards are forgiven.
No it doesnt, all mankind isnt sanctified.
 

Albion

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No it doesnt, all mankind isnt sanctified.
All mankind was justified by the Cross, but we all still have lives to live. That's why the New Testament is full of verses explaining how to live our lives IN ORDER THAT WE MAY be found acceptable to God upon our deaths.
 
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