Jesus died for the sins of the world

[brightfame52]

But I did not say anything about Christ preventing anyone from having saving Faith. And the notion that Faith is nothing more than a toothless by-product of being predestined to salvation is a mistake that we already dealt when Dave was promoting it.

To think such a thing as that would require Christians to remove all sorts of New Testament verses from our Bibles.

Again Faith is given in the application of Salvation, along with repentance, prior to that man is dead to God and Spiritual things.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm trying to understand your position. If the entire world didn't fall into sin...then what of the people who aren't the elect? They're sin free?

No, the non elect though they didnt fall in Adam, God appointed that they be born as Adam natural fallen children, but they are the serpents seed. God gave the serpent a seed, its stated in Gen 3:15. However satan is a evil spirit and cannot produce children, so his seed enters into the world as sinners just as the elect seed in Adam does, by natural childbirth. Cain a child of the devil 1 Jn 3:12

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Yet he came into the world the same way Abel did, by physical procreation by a Man and Women Gen 4:1-2

1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Cain was a child of the devil, a non elect, but Abel was of the seed f the woman and elect and was given Faith in Christ.

 

[Lamb]

No, the non elect though they didnt fall in Adam, God appointed that they be born as Adam natural fallen children, but they are the serpents seed. God gave the serpent a seed, its stated in Gen 3:15. However satan is a evil spirit and cannot produce children, so his seed enters into the world as sinners just as the elect seed in Adam does, by natural childbirth. Cain a child of the devil 1 Jn 3:12

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Yet he came into the world the same way Abel did, by physical procreation by a Man and Women Gen 4:1-2

1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Cain was a child of the devil, a non elect, but Abel was of the seed f the woman and elect and was given Faith in Christ.

I've never heard that before. What Christian denomination claims this?

 

[prism]

I believe thats true as well, for Adam in the beginning didn't represent all of mankind, but the elect Sons of God as did Christ, the non elect world belongs to the devils spiritual offspring, brought into existence through Adams natural headship.

The "paradox" of which Dr. Biermann spoke is that God desires all to be saved but all are not.

The issue of this thread is whether Jesus died for all people or ONLY for ________. There is no "paradox" there since Scripture says He died for all and never says He died for ONLY ________________. No paradox there.



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Review the video from 22min to 26m50s, he may not be using the word 'paradox', but that is what he is describing.

 

[brightfame52]

I've never heard that before. What Christian denomination claims this?

Some primitive baptist. Do you understand it ? What do you understand me saying ? If you ask questions please indicate you understand the respnses even though you arent familiar with, or dont agree with.

 

[Lamb]

Some primitive baptist. Do you understand it ? What do you understand me saying ? If you ask questions please indicate you understand the respnses even though you arent familiar with, or dont agree with.

Primitive Baptist? They don't even require any formal training of their pastors. No wonder I never heard of that type of belief. It sounds as if they believe that God created two different creations.

Why would God create two different creations of humans?

 

[brightfame52]

Primitive Baptist? They don't even require any formal training of their pastors. No wonder I never heard of that type of belief. It sounds as if they believe that God created two different creations.

Why would God create two different creations of humans?

You should be more concerned about if scripture supports the view instead of men in training.. Also you ignored my request, can you explain why ?

 

[Albion]

I've never heard that before. What Christian denomination claims this?

A tiny outfit, a branch of the Primitive Baptists called the Two-seed-in-the Spirit Predestinarian Baptists, comes to mind. Here's what the Wikipedia page says about them:

"Only a minuscule minority of Primitive Baptists adhere to the Two-Seed doctrine. The primary centers of Two-Seedism were in Northern Alabama, Arkansas, Eastern Tennessee, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, and Texas.[1][2][3] As of 2002, five churches or congregations of this faith and order still existed in Alabama, Indiana, Tennessee, and Texas."

 

[Josiah]

Review the video from 22min to 26m50s, he may not be using the word 'paradox', but that is what he is describing.

@prism


Perhaps. But he's NOT taking about this issue.

There is no paradox in this issue, and Dr. Biermann never said there is. The Bible repeatedly, clearly, verbatim, in black-and-white states that Jesus died for all. It NEVER says Jesus ONLY died for ____________. No there's no paradox or dialetheism. There is just one position stated.


Here are just some of the Scriptures that verbatim, flat-out, literally STATE that Jesus died for all. for everyone, for the whole world:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are several more.


Here are the Scriptures that state, "No, Jesus did not die for all but rather ONLY for ______________."


Crickets.



.




.

 

[prism]

@prism


Perhaps. But he's NOT taking about this issue.

There is no paradox in this issue, and Dr. Biermann never said there is. The Bible repeatedly, clearly, verbatim, in black-and-white states that Jesus died for all. It NEVER says Jesus ONLY died for ____________. No there's no paradox or dialetheism. There is just one position stated.


Here are just some of the Scriptures that verbatim, flat-out, literally STATE that Jesus died for all. for everyone, for the whole world:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are several more.


Here are the Scriptures that state, "No, Jesus did not die for all but rather ONLY for ______________."


Crickets.



.




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I suppose two can play the Scripture game.
Here is Anglican J. I. Packer giving it a shot…

Definite Redemption Jesus Christ Died for God's Elect by J. I. Packer

 

[Josiah]

Definite Redemption Jesus Christ Died for God's Elect by J. I. Packer

@prism


Here is the grave error of his position. It relies entirely on the heresy that faith is irrelevant.

He writes, "From this definiteness and effectiveness follows its limitedness: Christ did not die for everyone. The proof of that is that not all are saved."


He has not one Scripture that states Christ died for ONLY _______.
Not one Scripture that confirms what he claims.
His reason is NOT because Scripture states his view.
Instead, his "proof" is that "if Christ died for all, then all would be saved."
So much for faith!
Faith is completely, wholly, entirely eliminated.
No need for faith.
Faith is moot, does nothing, it's a joke.
His entire apologetic rests not on Scripture but on a heresy: Faith is irrelevant.

THIS is exactly the same heresy that our friends 1689Dave and Doran have, the same one many Reformed did 300 years ago when they split off into Universalism, the heresy that faith has no role in personal justification, the ONLY factor is the Cross, whether you are one of the mysterious lucky unknown few for whom Christ died.

Scripture does not state, "If Jesus died for you (and He probably didn't) then you have personal justification whether you believe or spit in His face."

Here's what Scripture states:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing but is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

"God justifies him who has faith in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:26

"Everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Acts 10:43

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." Acts 16:31

And so very, very more Scriptures just like the above.

And not one verse that states, "If you are one of the lucky few for whom Christ died (and you won't be told if you are but you probably aren't) then you are saved - you can spit in his face, denounce him and reject his Cross or believe it just doesn't matter either way because faith don't matter for nothing."

He has not one Scripture that says what he does. He rather relies entirely on a heresy.
Nothing from any Church Father or Church Council or anyone before the 16th Century.
Just a heresy. Just a grave heresy, that if Christ died for you then you are saved - forget all about faith, it's a joke, it's moot, it don't matter for nothing.




Here are just some of the Scriptures that verbatim, flat-out, literally STATE that Jesus died for all. for everyone, for the whole world:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are several more.


Here are the Scriptures that state, "No, Jesus did not die for all but rather ONLY for ______________."


Crickets.




.

 

[Albion]

Here is the grave error of his position. It relies entirely on the heresy that faith is irrelevant.

He writes, "From this definiteness and effectiveness follows its limitedness: Christ did not die for everyone. The proof of that is that not all are saved."

J. I. Packer actually made the point that Faith is essential, but that it doesn't automatically come to someone by virtue of him having been selected by God from before the person's birth.

It comes through the subsequent working of the Holy Spirit IN that person.

 

[Josiah]

@Albion

It seems to ME that if one is going to insist that FAITH is essential (not just the Cross) and that faith does not come to all, then their whole apologetic is wrong: J.I. Parker's point that "The proof that Christ did not die for all is that not all are saved" is, in that case, absurd, baseless and silly. If faith is essential (but not universal) then the Bible (and Christianity) could be right: Jesus died for all but not all are saved since not all have faith. Again, their position is that Christ's DEATH is not universal, "for all." And the apologetic, the proof, for that is "not all are saved." For the apolgetic to stand at all, faith either needs to be irrelevant or universal so that the only possible variant is Christ's death (either way, it's heresy).

Do you agree?

.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Then why aren't all saved, since their unbelief (lack of faith) is forgiven?

Sins without repentance are not forgiven.

 

[brightfame52]

J. I. Packer actually made the point that Faith is essential, but that it doesn't automatically come to someone by virtue of him having been selected by God from before the person's birth.

It comes through the subsequent working of the Holy Spirit IN that person.

Yet the Holy Spirits working in a person [new birth] is because Christ redeemed that person by His Blood, and Christ redeemed them by His blood because they were chosen in Him before the foundation by the Father.

Its outlined in Eph 1

Election by the Father Eph 1:3-4

Redemption by the Son Eph 1:7

The work of the Spirit in giving ears to hear the Gospel and sealing Eph 1:13-14

 

[Albion]

@Albion

It seems to ME that if one is going to insist that FAITH is essential (not just the Cross) and that faith does not come to all, then their whole apologetic is wrong: J.I. Parker's point that "The proof that Christ did not die for all is that not all are saved" is, in that case, absurd, baseless and silly. If faith is essential (but not universal) then the Bible (and Christianity) could be right: Jesus died for all but not all are saved since not all have faith. Again, their position is that Christ's DEATH is not universal, "for all." And the apologetic, the proof, for that is "not all are saved." For the apolgetic to stand at all, faith either needs to be irrelevant or universal so that the only possible variant is Christ's death (either way, it's heresy).

Do you agree?.

Honestly, J. I. Packer's thinking is above my pay grade, and I do not follow along with everything he explains. At least not so far as the various writings of his that I have read are concerned.

But he does insist that Election does not automatically confer saving Faith. And it's this point that's been missing--or is outright denied--on some of the many posts we've been reading.

 

[prism]

Honestly, J. I. Packer's thinking is above my pay grade, and I do not follow along with everything he explains. At least not so far as the various writings of his that I have read are concerned.

But he does insist that Election does not automatically confer saving Faith. And it's this point that's been missing--or is outright denied--on some of the many posts we've been reading.

Where does JI Packer ‘insist that Election does not automatically confer saving faith’?

 

[Lamb]

Where does JI Packer ‘insist that Election does not automatically confer saving faith’?

What would be the point of Christ dying then?

 

[prism]

What would be the point of Christ dying then?

Actually I asked @Albion (he made the assertion) “Where does JI Packer ‘insist that Election does not automatically confer saving faith’?”, not if one side or the other had a point.

 

[Josiah]

@prism

The "problem" with J.I.Packer's point is ...

1) He offers not one Scripture that states what he does, that Jesus died for ONLY _______.

2) His whole apologetic rests on a heresy that faith is irrelevant. He states, "Christ did not die for everyone. The proof of that is that not all are saved." So for him, there is only ONE factor: the death of Jesus, if Jesus died for you you are personally justified, if not then you aren't. Thus the entirety of his apologetic: the fact that all are not saved is "proof" that Christ did not die for all. This is the same apologetic used by 1689Dave and Doran, the same heresy that faith is irrelevant and unnecessary.



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