Jesus died for the sins of the world

[brightfame52]

I think we've understood that all along.

But the idea of the Atonement being limited to an arbitrarily chosen Elect is the sticking point.

Despite what you've said, Scripture seems to take the view that Christ died for the sins of mankind, not just for his Elect (who, if God truly chose his Elect from before all eternity and not on account of anything in them, wouldn't need for there to be any Sacrifice of the Cross, etc. from Him since their salvation was just a matter of God decreeing it).

No sorry, God only loved the world as it pertaineth to His elect or church, the rest of the world He hates !

 

[brightfame52]

Fifteen different Bible translations of that verse use almost identical wording. Here is the NRSV translation:

"For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures"

Please point us to the part in the verse which says in any way that Christ died on the Cross "not for all human beings but only for a certain group."

To tell people Christ died for every human being is nowhere found in scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

No.

...which says that it's the absence of Faith that condemns.

No the absence of Faith doesnt condemn, sin against God and His Law condemns !

 

[Josiah]

God loved a particular world, the world of His Own Elect Jn 13:1

Did you read John 13:1? If so, then you know it says nothing about Jesus dying ONLY for the elect.

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end

Of course. No one disagrees with a single word of that. But did you notice? There's NOTHING there about Jesus dying ONLY for the elect.

The rest of the world He didnt love.

Quote the verse where it states that. Or did you just make that up?

To tell people Christ died for every human being is nowhere found in scripture

Here are just some of the Scriptures that verbatim, flat-out, literally STATE that Jesus died for all. for everyone, for the whole world:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are several more.


Here are the Scriptures that state, "No, Jesus did not die for all but rather ONLY for ______________."


Crickets.





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[Lamb]

God loved a particular world, the world of His Own Elect Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end

The rest of the world He didnt love. Yes preaching God loved His own elect is Gospel, and what that love did and accomplished for them He loved.

If only a particular world was saved...then only a particular world fell into sin too?

 

[Albion]

No the absence of Faith doesnt condemn, sin against God and His Law condemns !

I know what you're thinking, but you're overlooking the fact that I was answering another poster there.

That poster had said that the "sin of unbelief" was what condemned a person, and I said that it wasn't any "sin of unbelief" but the unbelief itself that doomed such a person.

Such a person certainly commits all sorts of sins, but no matter how many sins or of what kind, if there were no Faith in Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior, he would be lost.

 

[prism]

Are we dealing with a dialetheism (I had to look that up) and/or a paradox?

 

[Josiah]

Are we dealing with a dialetheism (I had to look that up) and/or a paradox?

Neither.

Scripture says Jesus died for all.
Scripture never says Jesus died for only ____________.



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[John Steed]

Just look at John 3:16-17. It says it all. Jesus came to not destroy but to save us from our sins and our salvation. Always at risk there.

 

[prism]

Neither.

Scripture says Jesus died for all.
Scripture never says Jesus died for only ____________.



.

That makes no sense, even the video presentation you posted by Joel Biermann (post #1081) called it a paradox and now you are denying it??
Let me give definitions

Dialetheism: Dialetheism (from Greek δι- di- 'twice' and ἀλήθεια alḗtheia 'truth') is the view that there are statements that are both true and false. More precisely, it is the belief that there can be a true statement whose negation is also true. Such statements are called "true contradictions", dialetheia, or nondualisms. -Wiki

Paradox: A paradox is a logically self-contradictory statement or a statement that runs contrary to one's expectation.[1][2] It is a statement that, despite apparently valid reasoning from true premises, leads to a seemingly self-contradictory or a logically unacceptable conclusion.[3][4] A paradox usually involves contradictory-yet-interrelated elements that exist simultaneously and persist over time.[5][6][7] They result in "persistent contradiction between interdependent elements" leading to a lasting "unity of opposites".[8] -Wiki

 

[brightfame52]

If only a particular world was saved...then only a particular world fell into sin too?

I believe thats true as well, for Adam in the beginning didn't represent all of mankind, but the elect Sons of God as did Christ, the non elect world belongs to the devils spiritual offspring, brought into existence through Adams natural headship.

 

[brightfame52]

I know what you're thinking, but you're overlooking the fact that I was answering another poster there.

That poster had said that the "sin of unbelief" was what condemned a person, and I said that it wasn't any "sin of unbelief" but the unbelief itself that doomed such a person.

Such a person certainly commits all sorts of sins, but no matter how many sins or of what kind, if there were no Faith in Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior, he would be lost.

Those who Christ died for will be given faith in Him, unbelief in any way cant prevent Christ from saving someone He died for. He merely saves them and gives them faith, like He did Paul who was at first persecuting saul who did his sinning in unbelief 1 Tim 1:12-15

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Christ came into the world to save sinning unbelievers !

 

[Josiah]

That makes no sense, even the video presentation you posted by Joel Biermann (post #1081) called it a paradox and now you are denying it??

The "paradox" of which Dr. Biermann spoke is that God desires all to be saved but all are not.

The issue of this thread is whether Jesus died for all people or ONLY for ________. There is no "paradox" there since Scripture says He died for all and never says He died for ONLY ________________. No paradox there.



.

 

[Josiah]

1 Tim 1:12-15

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Christ came into the world to save sinning unbelievers !

Yup. Nothing about Jesus dying for ONLY _____________.



.

 

[Lamb]

I believe thats true as well, for Adam in the beginning didn't represent all of mankind, but the elect Sons of God as did Christ, the non elect world belongs to the devils spiritual offspring, brought into existence through Adams natural headship.

That doesn't make sense.

 

[brightfame52]

That doesn't make sense.

It should, the devil has an offspring/seed according to the scripture. Who was God speaking to in Gen 3:14-15

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[Lamb]

It should, the devil has an offspring/seed according to the scripture. Who was God speaking to in Gen 3:14-15

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

You're saying they were already sinful before sin began with Adam?

 

[Albion]

Those who Christ died for will be given faith in Him, unbelief in any way cant prevent Christ from saving someone He died for. He merely saves them and gives them faith, like He did Paul who was at first persecuting saul who did his sinning in unbelief 1 Tim 1:12-15

But I did not say anything about Christ preventing anyone from having saving Faith. And the notion that Faith is nothing more than a toothless by-product of being predestined to salvation is a mistake that we already dealt when Dave was promoting it.

To think such a thing as that would require Christians to remove all sorts of New Testament verses from our Bibles.

 

[brightfame52]

You're saying they were already sinful before sin began with Adam?

Who are you talking about ?

 

[Lamb]

Who are you talking about ?

I'm trying to understand your position. If the entire world didn't fall into sin...then what of the people who aren't the elect? They're sin free?