Jesus died for the sins of the world

[Albion]

What are UABs?

Current and former students of the University of Alabama at Birmingham.

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[Doran]

So, you don't believe that Christ died for all men...but it was just swell how he died for some! ROFLOL

Actually quite a few. See Rev 7:9. What part of that text don't you understand? Unless, of course, you believe there's people in heaven for whom Christ did not die!

 

[Josiah]

See Rev 7:9. What part of that text don't you understand?

@Doran


1. Since you asked, I don't understand the part or this verse where it states that Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for _________________(you won't say).


2. Since you asked, I don't understand how Rev. 7:9 proves all the Scriptures below are lies (or at the very least, highly misleading; it seems misleading everyone we know of until the 17 Century and still the vast majority of Christians):

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


Now, please don't repeat Dave's heresy that faith is irrelevant to personal justification; his apologetic that if Christ died for all (as the Bible states) then all would personal justification because faith is a joke, faith is irrelevant to this, faith is unnecessary. That IS a common apologetic for these anti-Calvin extremist but it is heresy. I'm sure you know that and don't want to make heresy the basis of your apologetic.

John shares a VISION. It's not of the Cross, it's A vision of heaven. And the point is the vastness of God's salvation, not how horribly limited it is. And it says NOTHING about for whom Jesus did not die. Of course, you know that.



A blessed Christmas to you and yours.



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[Albion]

Actually quite a few. See Rev 7:9. What part of that text don't you understand?

You aren't making any sense. There is a multitude in heaven from all nations, so there's nothing about that which supports your notion of Christ having died only for a select few.

 

[Doran]

Doran said:
Also, whether you know it or not, YOU also believe in limited atonement, since you limit the extent QUALITATIVELY. You believe Christ died for all qauantitatively, while simultaneously limiting its effect qualitatively to ONLY those who repent and believe. So...to play your silly game: Jesus died for all while only an "unknown few" benefit from his death.

Josdiah: Wrong.

I hold that Jesus died for all. The view those radical anti-Calvin theologians in the 17th century labled as "universal atonement" the view that Jesus died for all. Exactly as the Bible states and Christianity has held. I hold that Jesus died for all, not some unknown few. And I hold that faith is essential. That faith apprehends/applies/relies on what Christ did for them on the Cross, thus applying it individually. I reject that the Cross by itself or faith by itself brings personal justification. I hold that both are needed. As the Bible states and Christianity has held. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.' Both the Cross and faith.

Thus I accept that Jesus died for all (what you crowd calls "Universal Atonement" - we don't call it anything other than what it is, the view that Jesus died for all). And that faith means it is applied to the individual. Not all are personally justified because not all have faith; faith is essential to personal justification, faith IN CHRIST that is in His atoning work (life, death and resurrection)

Doran said:
Also, whether you know it or not, YOU also believe in limited atonement, since you limit the extent QUALITATIVELY. You believe Christ died for all qauantitatively, while simultaneously limiting its effect qualitatively to ONLY those who repent and believe. So...to play your silly game: Jesus died for all while only an "unknown few" benefit from his death.[/quoe]

Josdiah: Wrong.

I hold that Jesus died for all. The view those radical anti-Calvin theologians in the 17th century labled as "universal atonement" the view that Jesus died for all. Exactly as the Bible states and Christianity has held. I hold that Jesus died for all, not some unknown few. And I hold that faith is essential. That faith apprehends/applies/relies on what Christ did for them on the Cross, thus applying it individually. I reject that the Cross by itself or faith by itself brings personal justification. I hold that both are needed. As the Bible states and Christianity has held. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.' Both the Cross and faith.

Thus I accept that Jesus died for all (what you crowd calls "Universal Atonement" - we don't call it anything other than what it is, the view that Jesus died for all). And that faith means it is applied to the individual. Not all are personally justified because not all have faith; faith is essential to personal justification, faith IN CHRIST that is in His atoning work (life, death and resurrection)

You just contradicted yourself. You say "wrong" above to my statement but then admit in your last paragraph that Christ's atonement isn't effectual. Since it isn't effectual then that can only mean each of us has the last say in our destiny by either doing our part in believing the gospel or by rejecting the gospel. Therefore, you proved my point. Christ's atonement lacks a qualitative aspect.

Calvinists agree with scripture and say that for all those whom the Father has given to the Son, they will be saved because the gift of eternal life given by the Spirit of Christ will enable them to believe. Since dead people have no life in themselves to do anything, they must first be raised from the dead spiritually so that they can respond favorably to the gospel.

Also, since you insist that each and every saved person must believe the gospel, where does that leave infants, babies, toddlers and other young children who have died throughout the centuries without ever coming to a true knowledge (understanding) of Good and Evil? According to what you just stated above they must ALL be in hell among the damned.

You should do yourself a favor and read Jesus' High Priestly Prayer in John 17 slowly and several times. It's very obvious, that as the High Priest to God's chosen people, he LIMITED the extent of his prayer for only the two groups of elect.

Ah, then you've completely abandoned Limited Atonement. And you are FINALLY in agreement with us. We ALL agree, 100%, with Revelation 7:9.

Here's your "entire position" on the extent of Jesus' work on the Cross:
"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands."

Okay. Nothing there that repudiates all the verses that teach that Jesus died for all Nothing there that supports the horrible invention of some anti-Calvin folks that Jesus did not die for all but only for some few.


I guess we're done. You've completely abandoned your previous positions.





Of course. Saints are part of all. What is missing from this text is the position you now repudiate and reject, that He died for ONLY some.



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No, I have not abandoned my position. Can anyone know from scripture the exact number of God's elect that he predestined to save? If you know the number, give chapter and verse, please. Otherwise, take a hike.

 

[Doran]

@Doran


1. The part where that verse states that Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for _________________(you won't say).


2. How Rev. 7:9 proves all these Scriptures are lies (or at the very least, highly misleading):

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


Now, please don't repeat Dave's heresy that faith is irrelevant to personal justification; his apologetic that if Christ died for all (as the Bible states) then all would personal justification because faith is a joke, faith is irrelevant to this, faith is unnecessary. That IS a common apologetic for these anti-Calvin extremist but it is heresy. I'm sure you know that.

John shares a VISION. It's not of the Cross, it's A vision of heaven. And the point is the greatness of God's salvation, not how limited it is. And it says NOTHING about for whom Jesus did not die.



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Christ died for ONLY those he prayed for in John 17, i.e. elect Jews and elect Gentiles.

 

[Doran]

You aren't making any sense. There is a multitude in heaven from all nations, so there's nothing about that which supports your notion of Christ having died only for a select few.

I never had a such notion. Those were words YOU put into my mouth. YOU own the notion.

 

[Doran]

I never had a such notion. Those were words YOU put into my mouth. YOU own the notion.

MAN YOU GUYS ARE THICK. How many times do I have to tell you I never said a "select few". Explain why the elect MUST be only a select few. Explain your rationale. And explain your rationale for why universal atonement must mean a huge number of saved people.

 

[Doran]

@Doran


1. The part where that verse states that Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for _________________(you won't say).


2. How Rev. 7:9 proves all these Scriptures are lies (or at the very least, highly misleading):

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


Now, please don't repeat Dave's heresy that faith is irrelevant to personal justification; his apologetic that if Christ died for all (as the Bible states) then all would personal justification because faith is a joke, faith is irrelevant to this, faith is unnecessary. That IS a common apologetic for these anti-Calvin extremist but it is heresy. I'm sure you know that.

John shares a VISION. It's not of the Cross, it's A vision of heaven. And the point is the greatness of God's salvation, not how limited it is. And it says NOTHING about for whom Jesus did not die.



.

You keep posting those passages as though they mean all, but I have proven that many of the do not. You need to come up with some new "proof texts".

 

[Doran]

Here's the key to understanding John 17:

John 17:2
2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to ALL those you have given him.
NIV

ALL in the qualitative sense!

You see, gents, it's your heresy that is entirely incoherent. (See the two questions I have asked in my 1030). Jesus, on the other hand, is totally coherent and rational. He limited the subjects of his prayer "to all those you have given him". Give me one good reason why Jesus would pray for those the Father never intended to save. Why would Jesus pray for a huge number of non-elect (the "world" in this passage) when this world is filled with Ishmaels and Esaus? Why wouldn't Jesus limit his prayer for the Issacs and Jacobs of this world -- to those the Father predestined to save in eternity? To those are called OUT of this dark, forlorn world?

Also note the EFFECTUAL overtones to Jesus' words: "that he might give eternal life". Not that he might possibly give eternal life. Or give eternal life to those you gave, providing they do their part and believe in me. After all, did not Jesus also say "that all the Father gives to me WILL come to me" (Jn 6:37)? Another clear statement as to the EFFICACY of the Father's will. No ands, ifs or buts! They will come! And as sure as they come, they will come to believe! They will come in faith!

Furthermore, it's not possible that Jesus give eternal life to anyone the Father hasn't willed to give to him. I broached this subject on previous occasions. All I got was crickets. If Jesus died for and gave eternal life to someone outside of his Father's will, this would present no small theological problem, since the Son would be disobeying the Father. We could all kiss our salvation good-bye!

 

[Albion]

I never had a such notion. Those were words YOU put into my mouth. YOU own the notion.

Sorry, but we have a pile of posts with your name on them which substantiate that "notion."

MAN YOU GUYS ARE THICK.

Maybe it's just that you don't communicate very effectively.

Christ died for ONLY those he prayed for in John 17, i.e. elect Jews and elect Gentiles.

Jesus himself tells us that he lays down his life [only] for his friends,

No, it says he lays down his life for his friends, not that he does it ONLY for his friends. Besides, you've misunderstood the meaning of that verse.

It's not that Jesus lays down his life FOR his Friends as though they are the only ones he cares about. The verse is actually saying that the ACT OF LAYING DOWN ONE'S LIFE (for friends) is the most loving thing that any of us can do.

And that point is reinforced by this verse--

"We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 Timothy 2:6

So, my question to you is: Did Jesus also lay down his life for people he never knew?

John 3:16 tells us that he laid down his life for everyone ("whosoever") who would believe in him.

As you pointed out, you probably haven't used the words "select few," and I didn't quote you as having said it. But there is no fixed number of souls who constitute such an Elect, nor is anyone here arguing for any fixed number. However, it must be a select group, not all of mankind or even most of it, and that's for two reasons:

1. If the Elect were all or most of humanity, there wouldn't be any process of "selecting" or "choosing" on God's part, yet is what the Elect is all about

And

2. It is perfectly obvious from both reason and Scripture that if everyone were counted as being among God's elect, there would not be any non-believers! That's because the belief in an Elect includes the belief that those who are chosen will live Godly lives and have Faith in Christ. Most of the world is not Christian, as I think you would agree.

 

[brightfame52]

I suppose that "universal" atonement would mean "all" of them, that's right.

But what happened to your insistence that "all" doesn't really mean "all?" Are we making progress?

Universal atonement means that by His Death He will gather together all the children of God, not only from among the nation of Israel, but also those who are universally around the world Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

This shows us the gathering power of His death !

 

[Albion]

Universal atonement means that by His Death He will gather together all the children of God, not only from among the nation of Israel, but also those who are universally around the world Jn 11:50-52

Okay. No one is without hope since the Crucifixion, but the ones who will ultimately be saved are those--as you indicate--who believe in and trust Christ as Lord and Savior, these having been freed from the estrangement between God and Mankind that had existed as a consequence of the fall of Adam and Eve.

 

[Josiah]

Can anyone know from scripture the exact number of God's elect that he predestined to save? If you know the number, give chapter and verse, please.

@Doran


1. No, Scripture never identifies exactly which people are the "Elect" and never states what percentage of the world's population (past, present and future) "the elect" are. But again, those who support your view guess it's perhaps 1% to maybe as high as 20% but likely closer to the lower. Most would consider 1% or even 20% of the population since 33 AD to be "few" rather than "many" and certainly not the "all" that Scripture repeatedly states that Jesus died for.

2. I see you've returned to identifying those Jesus died for to "the Elect." If you know where the Bible states that, give the chapter and verse, please. Otherwise, we'll accept this as your own personal and current guess (without Scriptural confirmation).

You keep posting those passages as though they mean all,

You keep posting nothing that says "only the Elect." Or "only the _________ (any subgroup of "all")

A couple of days ago, you insisted on a game. How many verses state Jesus died for all (at least 3) and how many state only for the elect (0). And you insisted on keeping score. We're still at 3 to 0.

John 17:22 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to ALL those you have given him. NIV

1. I'm looking for "Jesus did not die for all but only for the elect." Where is that in this verse? In any verse?

2. Does Jesus have authority outside His church, His Body? Or is this speaking of his authority with believers, among Christians?

3. Does Jesus have to have authority over people in order for Scripture to be correct when it says He died for all?

Jesus, on the other hand, is totally coherent and rational. He limited the subjects of his prayer "to all those you have given him".

Anyone can pray for anyone. Praying for someone does not prove that ergo that's the only person(s) Jesus died for.

Jesus also prayed for Jerusalem. Does that prove that Jesus only died for the residents at that time who lived within the city limits of Jerusalem?

Most of the world is NOT Christian

And yet your position is that Jesus died for most of the world.
Now you admit most in the world are not among the Elect and not believers.
Therefore, your new position is that Jesus died for MORE than just the Elect, MORE than just believers.

Okay. So He died for "MANY" and among them are those who are not Christians. So, who exactly did He NOT die for? Just quote (chapter and verse) where the Bible states, "Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for ____________" and then we'll know.

Your unavoidable notation here is why those radical anti-Calvin folks who invented your horrible theory in the 17th Century were of the opinion that Jesus died not for many but for FEW (probably 1-10% or so of the world's population since 33AD) and reject that He died for "many." But you reject that, you insist that Jesus died "for many" including the non-elect and non-believers.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


Here are the Scriptures that state, "No, Jesus did not die for all but rather ONLY for ______________."

Crickets.




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[Faith]

Current and former students of the University of Alabama at Birmingham.

Football - UAB Athletics

The official Football page for the UAB Blazers

uabsports.com

What’s that have to do with the topic?

 

[brightfame52]

Okay. No one is without hope since the Crucifixion, but the ones who will ultimately be saved are those--as you indicate--who believe in and trust Christ as Lord and Savior, these having been freed from the estrangement between God and Mankind that had existed as a consequence of the fall of Adam and Eve.

Christ by His Death Gathers in the Children of God, not all mankind, He died specifically for the Children of God. Notice the power of His death, it gathers.

Its the same as when He said of His Sheep that He died for, that He was going to bring them all together into one assembly with one Sheperd Jn 10:15-16

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The words " must bring" is to the same purpose as gather together And notice again in Vs 15 its because He lay down His Life for them, So the Sheep in Jn 10 are the same as the children of God in Jn 11.

 

[Albion]

That's what it most often means, but the member who uses it in a lot of his posts probably has some other idea. He seems to think it's funny.

 

[Josiah]

He died specifically for the Children of God.

@brightfame52


Certainly; no one debates that.

But it is ONLY them? Where is the Scripture that says, "No, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for the Children of God?"

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Again, no one debates that.

But does the Bibles state that He died ONLY "for the sheep?"

If I posted, "Ford makes Mustangs" does that prove that Ford ONLY makes Mustangs?

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The words " must bring" is to the same purpose as gather together And notice again in Vs 15 its because He lay down His Life for them, So the Sheep in Jn 10 are the same as the children of God in Jn 11.

This would seem to lead to question the theory that He did not die for all (as the Bible verbatim repeatedly STATES) but ONLY for "the sheep." Here Jesus suggests He must gather MORE into the fold. Did Jesus die for them, too? Those are aren't currently part of "the sheep?" Biut actually, I think it's more likely this verse has nothing whatsoever to do with for whom Jesus died (which may be why they don't mention His death). "Sheep" here simply means believers. At this point He had believers but sought that more be brought in. IMO, this doesn't have to do with the Cross at all, it has to do with faith.




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[brightfame52]

Those in the world of 2 Cor 5:19 dont have sin charged to them, so they are totally Justified from sin. Now does that apply to all without exception ? Of course not. Those in Rev 18:4-5 have their sins charged to them and God remembers their sins !

 

[Josiah]

Christ died for ONLY those he prayed for in John 17, i.e. elect Jews and elect Gentiles.

@Doran


In another case, He prayed ONLY for Jerusalem. Does that prove ergo He ONLY died for those residents of the city of Jerusalem?
In another case, He prayed ONLY for those killing Him. Does that prove ergo He ONLY died for those killing Him?
Have you ever prayed for someone? Does that prove ergo Jesus died ONLY for that person?
Your whole premise is absurd.

There is no verse that states, "Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for those He specifically prayed for."
Here is what Scripture states:

"So that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.' Hebrews 2:9

"For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all." 2 Corinthians 5:14

"He died for all." 2 Corinthians 5:15

"Who gave himself as a ransom for all." 1 Timothy 2:6


and many more like them. And not one verse that states "Jesus did not die for all but rather only for some unknown few." And not one that says "Jesus died ONLY for those He prayed for."

Those in the world of 2 Cor 5:19 dont have sin charged to them, so they are totally Justified from sin. Now does that apply to all without exception ? Of course not. Those in Rev 18:4-5 have their sins charged to them and God remembers their sins !

Sadly, you seem to be falling into the same heresy that is found in some defenders of this horrible invention, the heresy of repudiating faith. To say "TO THEM" - to individual persons - and simply assume this is done without faith, that personal justification has nothing to do with faith. Dave's whole apologetic entirely depends on faith being irrelevant, and you are coming close to that. While the Cross certainly does mean that forgiveness is THERE (present, real - not a phantom), it is applied to an individual by faith. Personal justification does not occur ONLY because Christ died for them, it is apprehended/applied to the individual by faith.


Faith in Christ is irrelevant to personal justification.
Scripture does not state, "If Jesus died for you (and He probably didn't) then you have personal justification whether you believe or spit in His face."
Here's what Scripture states:


"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing but is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

"God justifies him who has faith in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:26

"Everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Acts 10:43

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." Acts 16:31

And so very, very more Scriptures just like the above. And not one verse that states, "If you are one of the lucky few for whom Christ died (and you won't be told if you are) then you are saved - you can spit in his face, denounce him and reject his Cross or believe it just doesn't matter because faith don't matter for nothing."




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