Were the Reformers Saved?

[Josiah]

Now you've reduced that to the claim that governments carried out the execution of many rebels.

It's called evasion.

His accusation is that Luther murdered thousands.

LUTHER
MURDERED
THOUSANDS.

And he had repeated that accusation.

But he REFUSES to give any substantiation for that; he has not been able to list the name of even ONE person that Luther murdered (he tried to implied Luther murdered Menno Simons but that's absurd, no one murdered him).

Dave REFUSES to substantiate his horrible accusation because he can't. It's an outright lie.

And Dave REFUSES to repent of this sin.

This from one who rants on and on about the need for righteousness and repentance.




.

 

[1689Dave]

So Luther murdered Menno Simons? Where is your proof of that? He indeed died of natural causes; he was not murdered by anyone.

And even if you can prove that, Menno Simons is ONE person, where are the names of the other "thousands?"


You stated, "Luther murdered thousands."

List the names of these thousands.

Or admit you are lying - and being persistent in your sin.




.

Your comprehension doesn't match my thoughts. We should try to better communicate. Buy the books Martyr's Mirror or Foxes's Book of Martyrs. Here's Luther in his own words: When he [Luther] was in later years reproached for such violent language, and for inciting territorial lords to merciless slaughter (they killed over 100,000 peasants), he answered defiantly: "It was I, Martin Luther, who slew all the peasants in the insurrection, for I commanded them to be slaughtered. All their blood is upon my shoulders. But I cast it on our Lord God who commanded me to speak in this way."

[13] Martin Luther, Werke, Erlangen edition,
vol. 24, p. 284; 294; vol. 15, p. 276; passim.

 

[Josiah]

We should try to better communicate.

I think this is clear. My four-year-old would have no problem whatsoever understanding.

You have stated - repeatedly - that Luther murdered thousands.

You have not listed even ONE NAME of even ONE person Luther murdered, much less thousands.

YOUR ACCUSATION: Luther murdered thousands
YOUR EVIDENCE: Nothing. Not one name of one person he murdered.

If your accusation is true, LIST THE NAMES of the thousands Luther murdered.
If you lied, repent and ask for forgiveness.

Ain't that complicated.


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[1689Dave]

I think this is clear. My four-year-old would have no problem whatsoever understanding.

You have stated - repeatedly - that Luther murdered thousands.

You have not listed even ONE NAME of even ONE person Luther murdered, much less thousands.

YOUR ACCUSATION: Luther murdered thousands
YOUR EVIDENCE: Nothing. Not one name of one person he murdered.

If your accusation is true, LIST THE NAMES of the thousands Luther murdered.
If you lied, repent and ask for forgiveness.

Ain't that complicated.


.

I've provided documentation. Here is some of it again.
When he [Luther] was in later years reproached for such violent language, and for inciting territorial lords to merciless slaughter (they killed over 100,000 peasants), he answered defiantly: "It was I, Martin Luther, who slew all the peasants in the insurrection, for I commanded them to be slaughtered. All their blood is upon my shoulders. But I cast it on our Lord God who commanded me to speak in this way."

[13] Martin Luther, Werke, Erlangen edition,
vol. 24, p. 284; 294; vol. 15, p. 276; passim.

 

[Josiah]

I've provided documentation.

No.

Your horrific accusation is that "Luther murdered thousands."

You've provided NOT ONE NAME of even ONE PERSON that Luther murdered.

You have been given MANY opportunities to take that back and repent of your flame, you have not, you just keep repeating it.

Here is your repeated accusation: "Luther murdered thousands"

Either he did and you can provide the names of those he murdered.
Or you are lying.

Either provide the names or repent and seek forgiveness.



.

 

[1689Dave]

No.

Your horrific accusation is that "Luther murdered thousands."

You've provided NOT ONE NAME of even ONE PERSON that Luther murdered.

You have been given MANY opportunities to take that back and repent of your flame, you have not, you just keep repeating it.

Here is your repeated accusation: "Luther murdered thousands"

Either he did and you can provide the names of those he murdered.
Or you are lying.

Either provide the names or repent and seek forgiveness.



.

"For if a man is an open rebel, every man is
his judge and executioner, just as when a fire
starts, the first to put it out is best man. . . .
Therefore let everyone who can smite, slay,
and stab, secretly or openly, remembering that
nothing can be more poisonous, hurtful, or
devilish than a rebel. It is just as when one
must kill a mad dog: if you do not strike him
he will strike you, and a whole land with you.
The Anabaptists

. . . Stab, smite, slay, whoever can. If you die
in doing it, well for you! A more blessed death
can never be yours, for you die in obeying the
divine Word and commandment in Romans
XIII, and in loving service of your neighbor
whom you are rescuing from the bonds of hell
and the devil." "A rebel is not worth
answering with arguments, for he does not
accept them. The answer for such mouths is a
fist that brings sweat from the nose. The
peasants would not listen; they would not let
anyone tell them anything; their ears must be
unbuttoned with bullets, till their heads jump
off their shoulders....On the obstinate,
hardened, blinded peasants, let no one have
mercy, but let everyone, as he is able, hew,
stab, slay, lay about him as though among mad
dogs, .... so that peace and safety may be
maintained. . . . And beyond all doubt, these
are precious works of mercy, love, and
kindness, since there is nothing on earth that is
worse than disturbance, insecurity, oppression,
violence, and injustice, etc., etc."

[13] Martin Luther, Werke, Erlangen edition,
vol. 24, p. 294; vol. 15, p. 276; passim.

 

[Josiah]

Dave,

Your horrific accusation is this; "LUTHER MURDERED THOUSANDS"
It's an accusation you have repeated several times.
"LUTHER MURDERED THOUSANDS."

Maybe you don't read even what you yourself posted, but the rest of us can read.
Your horrific accusation is this; "LUTHER MURDERED THOUSANDS"
It's an accusation you have repeated several times.
"LUTHER MURDERED THOUSANDS."

Your denial of your accusation is silly, we all can read it.
And you repeated it several times.

I appreciate your attempts to prove yourself wrong, but that doesn't help your case.

Here's your accusation: "LUTHER MURDERED THOUSANDS."
Either prove that Luther did that, performed those acts
Or repent and seek forgiveness.



.

 

[Albion]

I've provided documentation.

No, you have not. It's awkward to have to keep reminding you of your trickery, but you have fooled no one with it and, besides, it's hard for the rest of us to let such abuse of the forum go unchallenged. You understand.

 

[Josiah]

No, you have not. It's awkward to have to keep reminding you of your trickery, but you have fooled no one with it and, besides, it's hard for the rest of us to let such abuse of the forum go unchallenged. You understand.

Is it that he can't/won't READ posts? Even his own? And thus doesn't know what is stated, even by himself? We've CERTAINLY seen that with Scripture and with hundreds of posts to him.

OR is it that he just can't accept his mistakes? That accountability is eliminated for himself? That truth is just irrelevant to him?

I'd LIKE to think it just was very, very sloppy in what he posted here and really didn't mean it at all. That's always been my first thought. But he's been given many opportunities to say "oh, I didn't mean exactly that, I meant this...." but instead, he just re-states the same horrible accusation, documenting that he means exactly what he said, that Luther murdered thousands.

I think there are some posters - floating around, from site to site, very active for a few weeks before moving on - posters with an agenda and they just don't give a rip if they are correct or not, they have no intention of reading anything from anyone cuz they can't be bothered with that and like God consider themselves unable to be wrong; they just repeat their pitch without a care if its true or not. And this can apply even to their OWN posts. Could we have proof here in this thread that this is what we're dealing with?

What would cause him to not know what he himself stated?
What would cause him to reject any concern with whether it's true?
What would cause him to reject any repentance?

He keeps saying "by their fruits ye shall know them." Do we see fruit here that he doesn't read posts (even his own), that he rejects any aspect of truth and accountability? That he will not admit being wrong even when he knows he is? And if so, what does that say about his role here, in a discussion forum among Christians who respect truth and honesty, and who are committed to DISCUSSION? A site that can ONLY work if people read? "By their fruits ye shall know them?"





Well.... he HAS caused me to appreciate even more the truth, beauty and comfort of "Jesus died for all." And to appreciate how baseless heresies are once they expose themselves. And I've learned a bit about this from you, Origin and others. It's served a purpose. And I'm reminded AGAIN of just how tolerant this site is, how helpful the posters here TRY to be (even if that's condemned by some false teacher), and how much staff goes easy with such posters (which I appreciate). They tend to hang themselves - given enough time.



.




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[1689Dave]

Dave,

Your horrific accusation is this; "LUTHER MURDERED THOUSANDS"
It's an accusation you have repeated several times.
"LUTHER MURDERED THOUSANDS."

Maybe you don't read even what you yourself posted, but the rest of us can read.
Your horrific accusation is this; "LUTHER MURDERED THOUSANDS"
It's an accusation you have repeated several times.
"LUTHER MURDERED THOUSANDS."

Your denial of your accusation is silly, we all can read it.
And you repeated it several times.

I appreciate your attempts to prove yourself wrong, but that doesn't help your case.

Here's your accusation: "LUTHER MURDERED THOUSANDS."
Either prove that Luther did that, performed those acts
Or repent and seek forgiveness.



.

Don't take my word for it, take his.
[Luther] was in later years reproached for such violent language, and for inciting territorial lords to merciless slaughter (they killed over 100,000 peasants), he answered defiantly: "It was I, Martin Luther, who slew all the peasants in the insurrection, for I commanded them to be slaughtered. All their blood is upon my shoulders. But I cast it on our Lord God who commanded me to speak in this way."

[13] Martin Luther, Werke, Erlangen edition,
vol. 24, p. 284; 294; vol. 15, p. 276; passim.

 

[Albion]

Don't take my word for it, take his.

We can't take your word for it, Dave. It is quite clearly a lie when anyone claims that ALL THE REFORMERS WERE MURDERERS. Sometimes our typing gets ahead of our thinking and we produce a statement that we realize, before or after someone else calls it to our attention, what was posted was incorrect. In your case, though, you've stood by and reiterated this vicious slander again and again.

There simply is no getting around that behavior, yet you tried to defend having said it by reworking your wording several times. None of that worked, so it's time to admit that you were wrong to have said that all the Reformers were murderers.

C'mon. It won't hurt too much.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I question this because of the murderous lifestyles they lived. The Catholics too. The Catholics placed the State under the Church and used it to do their killing. The Protestants placed the Church under the State and used it to do their killing.

Any thoughts?

Without holiness no one shall see God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

They ordered it done. Just like Capone or any other gangster. I have more if interested.

I am no friend to the "reformers" nor to the Catholics who so wantonly killed heretics. And I see the point you're writing about. It seems to me that Adolf Hitler didn't directly kill many people and probably did not directly kill any Jews yet few will have any difficulty assigning guilt (and sin) to Mr Hitler for the holocaust and the war and a slew of other things.

Were Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli guilty in the same sort of way as Adolf Hitler? It's a good question to ask, but a question likely to upset those who's church traditions are (by implication) impugned if the answer is "yes" - including many Catholics who may feel offended by the moral misdeeds of some of our forebearers in the faith.

If the answer is "yes", what do you conclude about Lutheranism, Calvinism, Catholicism?

 

[1689Dave]

I am no friend to the "reformers" nor to the Catholics who so wantonly killed heretics. And I see the point you're writing about. It seems to me that Adolf Hitler didn't directly kill many people and probably did not directly kill any Jews yet few will have any difficulty assigning guilt (and sin) to Mr Hitler for the holocaust and the war and a slew of other things.

Were Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli guilty in the same sort of way as Adolf Hitler? It's a good question to ask, but a question likely to upset those who's church traditions are (by implication) impugned if the answer is "yes" - including many Catholics who may feel offended by the moral misdeeds of some of our forebearers in the faith.

If the answer is "yes", what do you conclude about Lutheranism, Calvinism, Catholicism?

My point is that they were probably not saved based on their actions. You can arrive at the truth through logic if your starting place is correct. So the truths they held did not necessarily come from any spirituality we deem necessary to qualify as a Christian. But their logic is based on Augustine's teachings against Pelagianism.

 

[Lamb]

My point is that they were probably not saved based on their actions. You can arrive at the truth through logic if your starting place is correct. So the truths they held did not necessarily come from any spirituality we deem necessary to qualify as a Christian. But their logic is based on Augustine's teachings against Pelagianism.

Based on anyone's actions, none of us are saved. None of us live that perfectly obedient life that the law demands...only Jesus was capable of that which is why HE die on the cross in our place.

 

[1689Dave]

Based on anyone's actions, none of us are saved. None of us live that perfectly obedient life that the law demands...only Jesus was capable of that which is why HE die on the cross in our place.

Without holiness, you won't see the Lord. You will know them by their fruits.

 

[Lamb]

Without holiness, you won't see the Lord. You will know them by their fruits.

OUR Holiness is Jesus' holiness. In baptism we're clothed with Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

OUR Holiness is Jesus' holiness. In baptism we're clothed with Christ.

It's a NEW HEART that hates sin and loves righteousness. It does not do what the Reformers did.

 

[Lamb]

It's a NEW HEART that hates sin and loves righteousness. It does not do what the Reformers did.

And yet, here we are, sinful human beings who still sin daily. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, we as believers have faith that our sins are forgiven, even the ones you do tomorrow. We can't navel gaze and wonder if we're good enough, no, we look at Jesus.

 

[1689Dave]

And yet, here we are, sinful human beings who still sin daily. Because of Jesus' death, we as believers have faith that our sins are forgiven, even the ones you do tomorrow. We can't navel gaze and wonder if we're good enough, no, we look at Jesus.

Here's the gist. Paul spells it out clearly. We have the wicked flesh before we experience salvation. It can only choose to sin. After God sends His Spirit into our hearts, we have a loving nature that hates sin and loves righteousness. This sets up a battle between the flesh and Spirit within until we die and the ground destroys the flesh. That's why Paul could say "O' wretched man that I am". Only the saved experience this battle daily.