Were the Reformers Saved?

[Albion]

You need to face the music. History is not kind to these people.

An embittered partisan with a chip on his shoulder might hope that's true, but such persons are not in good company. Most of the great Reformers remain widely admired even centuries after their time. The exception is the Roman Catholic Church, of course, and it's that institution that you side with on this topic.

Luther, for instance, had an entire issue of one of America's most-read news magazines dedicated to his memory and his work on the 500th anniversary of his birth. Not many religious figures of any stripe are in that company. And he was referred to as one of the several most important Christians figures in all history. Others, some of whom were ultimately martyred for their faith, have remained heroic figures in the estimation of most Protestant Christians, including the members of churches that have no direct lineage back to these men. Innumerable seminaries, colleges, churches, and etc. are named after the Reformers, as well. Try comparing that record with the same thing in the case of, say, Thomas Aquinas or Pope Innocent III or (one of your heroes) Jan of Leyden (who??).

Jan of Leyden's checkered history is recorded in the Wikipedia article this way--

"John of Leiden (born Johan Beukelszoon; 2 February 1509 – 22 January 1536) was a Dutch Anabaptist leader. In 1533 he moved to Münster, capital of the Prince-Bishopric of Münster, where he became an influential prophet, turned the city into a millenarian Anabaptist theocracy, and proclaimed himself King of New Jerusalem in September 1534."

Not exactly what you've been spouting off about, is it? You know, how the Anabaptists were supposedly such nice people and were unfairly persecuted by people who (shudder) wanted to put the church under the state and kill anyone who got in its way.

 

[1689Dave]

You need to face the facts. You stated that Luther murdered people. And you did not tell the truth.



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Luther and all of the reformers murdered thousands of Anabaptists. Now how could they do this with their bare hands? They ordered it done by the States they placed over their churches. Where did all those dead Christians come from?

 

[Albion]

Luther and all of the reformers murdered thousands of Anabaptists.

Because you know that statement to be a lie, we are wondering why you would post it again?

Are we expected by you to have forgotten that the claim was already shown to be false...or is it that we are supposed to have had time enough to forget how you squirmed when the lie was shown to be false?

Or maybe it's just that you are a run-of-the mill troll who likes to outrage and frustrate whoever reads your posts, and you find that to be fun?

 

[1689Dave]

Because you know that statement to be a lie, we are wondering why you would post it again?

Are we expected by you to have forgotten that the claim was already shown to be false...or is it that we are supposed to have had time enough to forget how you squirmed when the lie was shown to be false?

Or maybe it's just that you are a run-of-the mill troll who likes to outrage and frustrate whoever reads your posts, and you find that to be fun?

Study to see for yourself. Many quotes by Luther exist if you are able to search them out. But calling me a liar is self-incriminating on your part.

 

[Albion]

Study to see for yourself.

There is no need for me to study what has already been shown to be just another lie.

Why would you think that studying a lie would be profitable? The most likely answer is that trolls like to cause other people to waste their time and energy on useless assignments (so I'll keep this answer short ).

 

[1689Dave]

There is no need for me to study what has already been shown to be just another lie.

Why would you think that studying a lie would be profitable? The most likely answer is that trolls like to cause other people to waste their time and energy on useless assignments (so I'll keep this answer short ).

You need to study so you don't lie.

 

[Albion]

You need to study so you don't lie.

Sorry, but the "I'm rubber and you're glue" routine went out with the sixth grade playground.

 

[1689Dave]

Sorry, but the "I'm rubber and you're glue" routine went out with the sixth grade playground.

So learning history is a bad thing? I suppose if it incriminates a person or a "church" they might want to avoid it.

 

[Albion]

So learning history is a bad thing?

"Learning history" has nothing to do with it. You could stand to learn some history, and that's no lie, but it has nothing to do with your diversions.

 

[1689Dave]

"Learning history" has nothing to do with it. You could stand to learn some history, and that's no lie, but it has nothing to do with your diversions.

You just don't like my history books.

 

[Albion]

You just don't like my history books.

You have some?

 

[1689Dave]

You have some?

I have many rare books that I digitize for the computer. I checked on one recently selling for over 700 bucks on Amazon!

 

[Josiah]

Luther murdered thousands.

List the names of the thousands Luther murdered.

Or admit you are lying.



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[1689Dave]

List the names of of thousands Luther murdered.

Or admit you are lying.



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They are in the books Martyr's Mirror, and Foxes' Book of Martyrs. Have you ever studied Luther's Dual Morality doctrine? You need to. It might help you to understand yourself as a Lutheran.

 

[Josiah]

They are in the books Martyr's Mirror, and Foxes' Book of Martyrs. Have you ever studied Luther's Dual Morality doctrine? You need to. It might help you to understand yourself as a Lutheran.

You stated that Luther murdered thousands.

List the names of them.

Or admit you lied.



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[1689Dave]

You stated that Luther murdered thousands.

List the names of them.

Or admit you lied.



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How could Luther murder thousands and keep his other irons in the fire?

 

[Josiah]

How could Luther murder thousands and keep his other irons in the fire?

Questions are not answers and substantiate NOTHING.

You stated that Luther murdered thousands.

List the names of these thousands Luther murdered.

Or admit you are lying.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Questions are not answers and substantiate NOTHING.

You stated that Luther murdered thousands.

List the names of these thousands Luther murdered.

Or admit you are lying.



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Here it is again:

Menno Simons writes of this bloody cruelty in which thousands of Anabaptists were put to death by the Protestant State-churches: This should give you a clue about how they murdered so many.​

 

[Josiah]

Here it is again:

Menno Simons writes of this bloody cruelty in which thousands of Anabaptists were put to death by the Protestant State-churches:​

So Luther murdered Menno Simons? Where is your proof of that? He indeed died of natural causes; he was not murdered by anyone.

And even if you can prove that, Menno Simons is ONE person, where are the names of the other "thousands?"


You stated, "Luther murdered thousands."

List the names of these thousands.

Or admit you are lying - and being persistent in your sin.




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[Albion]

Here it is again:

Menno Simons writes of this bloody cruelty in which thousands of Anabaptists were put to death by the Protestant State-churches: This should give you a clue about how they murdered so many.​

I don't see anything there other than you saying that Menno Simons wrote something. But no matter. It is significant, however, that you claimed that ALL THE REFORMERS were murderers.

Now you've reduced that to the claim that governments carried out the execution of many rebels.

THAT is QUITE a difference!