Were the Reformers Saved?

[1689Dave]

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A casual search of the internet will dish up more than enough dirt to keep you busy. Her's one of many links. Luther Favored the Death Penalty for Anabaptists

 

[Josiah]

But they were all murderers.

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[1689Dave]

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As far as I know, all placed the church under State control, and the State did the killing for them. Luther was really big on this in his dual morality doctrine. You should study it sometime.


"All of the leading Reformers, who so
heroically freed the Church from the Roman
Catholic church and the Pope, fastened a State
Church upon the people wherever they went,
and the time New Testament sovereign local
church that stood for absolute religious liberty
was persecuted by these State Churches of the
Reformers. This was time of—Luther, who
fastened a State Church upon Germany;
Zwingli . . .in Switzerland; John Knox . . .in
Scotland: Henry VIII ... in England: (and
John Calvin in Geneva, whose consistory was
nothing more than a bold-faced inquisition).
They all become persecutors like Rome before
them!" [9]

 

[Josiah]

they were all murderers

Just list the names of the people Martin Luther murdered.



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[1689Dave]

Just list the names of the people Martin Luther murdered.



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He did not murder anyone. But he ordered it. A list? Martyr's Mirror, Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

 

[1689Dave]

If Luther lived by what he later preached, that a Christian must yield to the State first, even to the point of stabbing, robbing, and killing in its defense, no matter how wicked the ruler might be, the Reformation would not have taken place as far as it concerned him. E.G. Rupp and Benjamin Drewery, Martin Luther, Documents of Modern History (London: Edward Arnold, 1970), pp. 121-6. Martin Luther, Werke, Erlangen edition, vol. 24, p. 294; vol. 15, p. 276; passim. The Anabaptists: Neither Catholics or Protestants​ By William R. McGrath​ ​ ​

 

[Josiah]

You indicated that Martin Luther was a murderer.

Either list the names of the people Luther murdered or repent.


In discussions such as these, we are not to flame persons. And it's generally considered an exceptionally grave flaming to do so to an esteemed historic figure.

I can understand why you want to change the subject.... perhaps even try to hide what you actually said... but we all know what you stated. That Luther was a murderer.


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[1689Dave]

You indicated that Martin Luther was a murderer.

Either list the names of the people Luther murdered or repent.


In discussions such as these, we are not to flame persons. And it's generally considered an exceptionally grave flaming to do so to an esteemed historic figure.

I can understand why you want to change the subject.... perhaps even try to hide what you actually said... but we all know what you stated. That Luther was a murderer.


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They were ALL murders. I already posted his claim to it. Need I post it again? What about Luther's hypocrisy I just exposed above?

 

[Josiah]

They were ALL murders.

If Luther murdered "all" then how can it be that we are here today?

You stated that Luther was a murderer. Either list the names of those he murdered or repent of the "false witness" and grave flame. You talk a lot about righteouness and repentance, does it apply to you?



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[1689Dave]

If Luther murdered "all" then how can it be that we are here today?

You stated that Luther was a murderer. Either list the names of those he murdered or repent of the "false witness" and grave flame. You talk a lot about righteouness and repentance, does it apply to you?



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ALL the reformers were murderers. But he delighted and bragged about his role in it.

 

[Albion]

ALL the reformers were murderers. But he delighted and bragged about his role in it.

In other words you cannot identify any reformer who was, in fact, a murderer.

That is what we thought when the question was asked, but we gave you a chance. All you did was make your claim more ridiculous than before!

 

[1689Dave]

In other words you cannot identify any reformer who was, in fact, a murderer.

That is what we thought when the question was asked, but we gave you a chance. All you did was make your claim more ridiculous than before!

It was their policy to place the church in subjection to the State. They had the States killing thousands of Anabaptists during those times.

 

[Albion]

It was their policy to place the church in subjection to the State.

So.....when you said that ALL the Reformers were "murderers," what you actually meant to say was that some Reformers (still unnamed by you) attempted to place the church under the state rather than murder anyone.

What do we say about any person who makes such ridiculous excuses as that in order to exonerate himself from the false witness he'd earlier born against other people?

They had the States killing thousands of Anabaptists during those times.

Who are "they?" You still are making easy charges against anonymous persons. I just looked up some lists of Protestant Reformers of the early Reformation and there was name after name of people who didn't murder anyone, although many were executed themselves for their beliefs. And yet you claimed that "ALL" the Reformers were murderers.

 

[Josiah]

In other words you cannot identify any reformer who was, in fact, a murderer.

And Dave goes on and on about the critical importance of righteousness and repentance.

Perhaps the Ten Commandments and repentance don't apply to HIM?

In fairness, I had HOPED that we have a case of very sloppy posting; of a person who doesn't READ what they themselves posted and don't really mean it. Or perhaps even one of those thoughtless guys who just copy/paste from something on the internet - without ever giving it a though and not accepting any responsibility for it. But Dave had chance after change, time after time, to correct what he said. He didn't. And when this was noted, rather than repent or just say "well, that was hyperbole" or "that was poorly worded - I didn't mean that" he choose to stick with it. That's disturbing. Do we have someone who exempts self from accountability and responsibility, someone who just holds he cannot err? I've always given this poster LOTS and LOTS of opportunity to consider exactly what he posted - and correct it. It's never happened.

"Flaming" is the defaming of a person. It's a rule violation pretty much everywhere and generally regarded as a sin in Christianity. It is generally considered most gravest when it's leveled at an esteemed public figure. Like Martin Luther.

 

[1689Dave]

And Dave goes on and on about the critical importance of righteousness and repentance.

Perhaps the Ten Commandments and repentance don't apply to HIM?

In fairness, I had HOPED that we have a case of very sloppy posting; of a person who doesn't READ what they themselves posted and don't really mean it. Or perhaps even one of those thoughtless guys who just copy/paste from something on the internet - without ever giving it a though and not accepting any responsibility for it. But Dave had chance after change, time after time, to correct what he said. He didn't. And when this was noted, rather than repent or just say "well, that was hyperbole" or "that was poorly worded - I didn't mean that" he choose to stick with it. That's disturbing. Do we have someone who exempts self from accountability and responsibility, someone who just holds he cannot err? I've always given this poster LOTS and LOTS of opportunity to consider exactly what he posted - and correct it. It's never happened.

"Flaming" is the defaming of a person. It's a rule violation pretty much everywhere and generally regarded as a sin in Christianity. It is generally considered most gravest when it's leveled at an esteemed public figure. Like Martin Luther.

How closely did these mirror, Jesus? John says if any have not the Sermon on the Mount, they do not have God. Have you ever heard it preached in your Church?

 

[Albion]

As far as I know, all placed the church under State control, and the State did the killing for them. Luther was really big on this in his dual morality doctrine. You should study it sometime.


"All of the leading Reformers, who so
heroically freed the Church from the Roman
Catholic church and the Pope, fastened a State
Church upon the people wherever they went,
and the time New Testament sovereign local
church that stood for absolute religious liberty
was persecuted by these State Churches of the
Reformers. This was time of—Luther, who
fastened a State Church upon Germany;
Zwingli . . .in Switzerland; John Knox . . .in
Scotland: Henry VIII ... in England: (and
John Calvin in Geneva, whose consistory was
nothing more than a bold-faced inquisition).
They all become persecutors like Rome before
them!" [9]

Didn't you even notice the errors of fact in that rundown?

 

[Lamb]

As an Admin, this thread is ridiculous in its claims.

 

[1689Dave]

As an Admin, this thread is ridiculous in its claims.

You need to face the music. History is not kind to these people.

 

[1689Dave]

Didn't you even notice the errors of fact in that rundown?

Have you ever studied this topic? How do you know if my resources are correct other than by venting your disapproval? We have a lot of dead people that say they're are right, thousands and millions if you throw in the Catholics too.

 

[Josiah]

You need to face the music.

You need to face the facts. You stated that Luther murdered people. And you did not tell the truth.



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