Jesus died for the sins of the world

[Albion]

John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

You are mentally adding to the verses what you would like to be there but is not. And that's what you are telling us to believe--your slant on the meaning but not the meaning itself.

Notice that the verses do not say that those who don't believe were not chosen. Rather, it says that they are not among his sheep, i.e. they are not willing.

They instead refuse what could have been. They are set upon bringing Christ down and of exhaulting themselves, because they are the religious leaders at that point in history.

 

[1689Dave]

You are mentally adding to the verses what you would like to be there but is not. And that's what you are telling us to believe--your slant on the meaning but not the meaning itself.

Let's see your stuff. Prove Jesus wrong.

 

[Albion]

I cannot do that. I did, however, show why it is that your theory concerning Jesus' words is wrong.

Prove Jesus wrong.

 

[1689Dave]

I cannot do that. I did, however, show why it is that your theory concerning Jesus' words is wrong.

At least you are being honest about coming up empty handed.

 

[Josiah]

You are mentally adding to the verses what you would like to be there but is not. And that's what you are telling us to believe--your slant on the meaning but not the meaning itself.

Notice that the verses do not say that those who don't believe were not chosen. Rather, it says that they are not among his sheep, i.e. they are not willing.

They instead refuse what could have been. They are set upon bringing Christ down and of exhaulting themselves, because they are the religious leaders at that point in history.

Of course.

Nowhere in John Chapter 10 does it state what Dave insists it does, no "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some few." No verse that states, "Jesus did not die for Pharisees."

What the Apostle John DID state (albeit not in John Chapter 10) is this:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

NEVER did John (or anyone before some radical anti-Calvin folks) state, "No, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some few."



.

 

[1689Dave]

Of course.

Nowhere in John Chapter 10 does it state what Dave insists it does, no "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some few." No verse that states, "Jesus did not die for Pharisees."

What the Apostle John DID state (albeit not in John Chapter 10) is this:

But, Jesus gave His blood for the Church, HIS BODY. are you saying all of the scum in the world is His body?

 

[Josiah]

But, Jesus gave His blood for the Church, HIS BODY. are you saying all of the scum in the world is His body?

I say you are employing a SILLY, nonsensical logical fallacy in order to completely CHANGE what God said. God said He died for His body. It never says he ONLY died for His body. It's a logical fallacy. The same one as illustrated here: "Ford makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Or "Bob loves his wife, ERGO he ONLY loves his wife and hates his kids."


Your entire apologetic rests on these 4 things:

1. Scriptures that don't exist to contradict many Scriptures that verbatim state the EXACT OPPOSITE of your view
2. A goodly number of silly logical fallacies (as in above)
3. The claim that questions are substantiation.
4. The repudiation of faith.



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[Albion]

At least you are being honest about coming up empty handed.

LOL Well, you are not being honest in pretending that I came up "empty handed."

Josiah, Origen, I, and others could not have been more specific in our explanations to you while you merely point to a word or phrase here or there and then tell us what you'd like it to mean. And when rebuffed with facts, simply say the same thing again. And again. And again.

 

[1689Dave]

I say you are employing a SILLY, nonsensical logical fallacy in order to completely CHANGE what God said. God said He died for His body. It never says he ONLY died for His body. It's a logical fallacy. The same one as illustrated here: "Ford makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Or "Bob loves his wife, ERGO he ONLY loves his wife and hates his kids."


Your entire apologetic rests on these 4 things:

1. Scriptures that don't exist to contradict many Scriptures that verbatim state the EXACT OPPOSITE of your view
2. A goodly number of silly logical fallacies (as in above)
3. The claim that questions are substantiation.
4. The repudiation of faith.



.

You still cannot argue against John 10. One contributor gave it a shot and really impressed me with his honesty. Do you think Christ shed his blood for all who are destined for hell? It says he purchased the church, his body, with his blood on the cross. And they have eternal life. All you say he supposedly died for do not.

“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9 (KJV 1900) If he justified all by his blood, how can most of the alleged wind up in hell?

 

[Lamb]

You still cannot argue against John 10. One contributor gave it a shot and really impressed me with his honesty. Do you think Christ shed his blood for all who are destined for hell? It says he purchased the church, his body, with his blood on the cross. And they have eternal life. All you say he supposedly died for do not.

“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9 (KJV 1900) If he justified all by his blood, how can most of the alleged wind up in hell?

Okay, so if we go along your line of thinking, why would God even let men be born if they are destined for hell? What a waste of life from God according to your theology.

 

[Josiah]

You still cannot argue against John 10.

I'm not arguing against John 10. It never states, "Jesus did not die for all people but only, exclusively, solely for some unknown few." I'm arguing against that position but since nowhere does John state that (elsewhere, he states the opposite) thus I'm not arguing against anything in John 10.

It says he purchased the church, his body, with his blood on the cross.

Yes it does. But it doesn't say what you do, that He ONLY died for His church.

You are employing just one of a number of logical fallacies here. The one illustrated by "Ford makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Everyone (but you) sees the logical fallacy you, you don't, you use this as a foundational apologetic for your view.

If he justified all by his blood, how can most of the alleged wind up in hell?

1. Just one of your absurd apologetics. Questions are not substantiation.

2. Your heresy of repudiating faith. Faith is not irrelevant, it is essential for personal justification.

3. Your "if" is wrong; the Cross of Jesus does NOT - of and by itself - result in personal justification. John 3:16 does NOT state, "For God so loved some unknown few people (probably not you) that He gave His only-begotten son just to them (odds are, not to you) so that THEY will not perish but have everlasting life whether they have faith in what He did for them or spit in His face, repudiate all He did and denoucne Him, it doesn't matter cuz faith is a joke."



.

 

[Albion]

“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9 (KJV 1900) If he justified all by his blood, how can most of the alleged wind up in hell?

This is one of the most common flaws in your rather unique approach to the matter of the Atonement and salvation.

I'm referring to your insistence that if Christ's sacrifice paid for the sins of men, it also guaranteed that no new sins would ever be committed by the people then alive or by those yet to be born. Instead, it's just 'Christ paid the price, so now every human has a "Get out of Hell Free" card.'

Well, they do not. To have redeemed mankind and given mankind a new start as well as a way to escape the rightful consequences of any future sins is quite something done on Christ's part, wouldn't you agree? But it doesn't mean that sin was abolished forevermore!

That would make no sense, yet you've constantly presented your case as if it is what the Cross was all about.

 

[1689Dave]

I'm not arguing against John 10. It never states, "Jesus did not die for all people but only, exclusively, solely for some unknown few." I'm arguing against that position but since nowhere does John state that (elsewhere, he states the opposite) thus I'm not arguing against anything in John 10.




Yes it does. But it doesn't say what you do, that He ONLY died for His church.

You are employing just one of a number of logical fallacies here. The one illustrated by "Ford makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Everyone (but you) sees the logical fallacy you, you don't, you use this as a foundational apologetic for your view.




1. Just one of your absurd apologetics. Questions are not substantiation.

2. Your heresy of repudiating faith. Faith is not irrelevant, it is essential for personal justification.

3. Your "if" is wrong; the Cross of Jesus does NOT - of and by itself - result in personal justification. John 3:16 does NOT state, "For God so loved some unknown few people (probably not you) that He gave His only-begotten son just to them (odds are, not to you) so that THEY will not perish but have everlasting life whether they have faith in what He did for them or spit in His face, repudiate all He did and denoucne Him, it doesn't matter cuz faith is a joke."



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If Christ paid for all sin, why do so many perish? Doesn't all sin include the sin of rejecting him?

 

[1689Dave]

Okay, so if we go along your line of thinking, why would God even let men be born if they are destined for hell? What a waste of life from God according to your theology.

Paul says God created all for his glory. The damnation of the reprobate makes his wrath known to the created order. This would include his righteousness and sovereignty. The arbitrary salvation of some makes his love and mercy known, by Christ's suffering on the cross. We all glorify God as saved or damned.

“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” Romans 9:22–24 (KJV 1900)

“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold (many, lots of examples of the) wisdom of God,” Ephesians 3:9–10 (KJV 1900)

 

[Albion]

If Christ paid for all sin, why do so many perish? Doesn't all sin include the sin of rejecting him?

Because Christ did not give anyone a 'blank check" to continue committing sins AFTER the sins that were forgiven by God with the sacrifice of the Cross were set aside.

So,...how many times does this make that you have had this matter explained to you? Five? Fifteen? Do you remember any of those?

 

[1689Dave]

Because Christ did not give anyone a 'blank check" to continue committing sins AFTER the sins that were forgiven by God with the sacrifice of the Cross were set aside.

So,...how many times does this make that you have had this matter explained to you? Five? Fifteen? Do you remember any of those?

You cannot have saving faith if you think you can be lost. Those for whom Christ died have eternal life so perishing is impossible. All whom the Father gave to Christ will come to him.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)
Just a few reminders.

 

[Albion]

You cannot have saving faith if you think you can be lost.

When did you come to the realization that "saving Faith" has a vital role to play in this process after all?

I mean...after all the times we have tried to explain it to you, and you remained determined to believe that Faith is nothing special. Wow.

 

[1689Dave]

When did you come to the realization that "saving Faith" has a vital role to play in this process after all?

I mean...after all the times we have tried to explain it to you, and you remained determined to believe that Faith is nothing special. Wow.

Where does faith come from?

 

[Albion]

Where does faith come from?

Have you tried studying the matter? If not, I'd recommend starting there.

I'm sure you can appreciate that advice since it's what you like to tell everyone else.

 

[1689Dave]

Have you tried studying the matter? If not, I'd recommend starting there.

I'm sure you can appreciate that advice since it's what you like to tell everyone else.

We have two different faiths wouldn't you say? If you chose to believe, you do not have my faith. Not even close.