Jesus died for the sins of the world

[1689Dave]

I have done a thread clean up and have removed multiple posts here that diverted into a discussion about a person's character. Let's get back on topic please.

This entire topic would become settled if anyone would explain how universal atonement works when Jesus told the Pharisees in John 10 he did not die for them. And THAT is why they cannot believe. Are there any honest takers out there?

 

[Lamb]

This entire topic would become settled if anyone would explain how universal atonement works when Jesus told the Pharisees in John 10 he did not die for them. And THAT is why they cannot believe. Are there any honest takers out there?

Jesus did not say he did not die for them. He said he died for His sheep and that is true. No one denies that. You're adding something to scripture to try to make it fit your theology.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus did not say he did not die for them. He said he died for His sheep and that is true. No one denies that. You're adding something to scripture to try to make it fit your theology.

He said he did not die for them resulting in their inability to believe. I give my life for the sheep. You are not my sheep. Nowhere does he say he gave his life for them.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus paid for our sins on the cross. This means we are saved because God sees us as never having sinned. Never having sinned means God cannot punish you for sin but owes you complete restoration instead. This is why we go to heaven. That is how he saves us.

This is not true for most, or they too would be sin free and saved just as we are.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus paid for our sins on the cross. This means we are saved because God sees us as never having sinned. Never having sinned means God cannot punish you for sin but owes you complete restoration instead. This is why we go to heaven. That is how he saves us.

This is not true for most, or they too would be sin free and saved just as we are.

All makes sense given your heresy of denying faith.



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[1689Dave]

All makes sense given your heresy of denying faith.



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I understand your feelings. and forgive you.

 

[Albion]

He said he did not die for them resulting in their inability to believe. I give my life for the sheep. You are not my sheep. Nowhere does he say he gave his life for them.

In other words, Lamb was correct about your error.

A simple apology from you would probably have been better than this evasive response of yours.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus paid for our sins on the cross. This means we are saved because God sees us as never having sinned. Never having sinned means God cannot punish you for sin but owes you complete restoration instead. This is why we go to heaven. That is how he saves us.

This is not true for most, or they too would be sin free and saved just as we are.

Correct, those sins Christ died for, they are forever taken out the way, and so none for whom Christ died, God will never impute sin unto them for that reason, which makes them blessed Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The reason why ? Because God has already imputed their sins to Christ so that He would die for them.

 

[Josiah]

This entire topic would become settled if anyone would explain how universal atonement works

Here's how it works: Jesus died for all (as the Bible EXPRESSLY, LITERALLY, VERBATIM, EXACTLY, WORD-FOR-WORD, VERY OFTEN states And where there is faith, the individual apprehends/applies that to self so that the individual has personal justification. Ain't rocket science.



@brightfame52

Correct, those sins Christ died for, they are forever taken out the way, and so none for whom Christ died, God will never impute sin unto them for that reason, which makes them blessed

The problem, friend, is that your view deletes faith.

Nowhere does the Bible state that one has personal justification without faith. Here's what the Bible states:


“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


Yes, Jesus died for all, for everyone as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification.



A blessed Advent season to you and yours.


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[1689Dave]

Here's how it works: Jesus died for all (as the Bible EXPRESSLY, LITERALLY, VERBATIM, EXACTLY, WORD-FOR-WORD, VERY OFTEN states And where there is faith, the individual apprehends/applies that to self so that the individual has personal justification. Ain't rocket science.





The problem, friend, is that your view deletes faith.

Nowhere does the Bible state that one has personal justification without faith.



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Christ must die and justify a person before they can experience faith which is a part of salvation.

 

[Lamb]

Christ must die and justify a person before they can experience faith which is a part of salvation.

You mean Christ dies and objectively justifies mankind and then subjectively God gives faith so they can take hold of that by believing? That's what we've been saying.

 

[1689Dave]

You mean Christ dies and objectively justifies mankind and then subjectively God gives faith so they can take hold of that by believing? That's what we've been saying.

People are damned and helpless sinners. God arbitrarily chose some from among them by name for his glory. Christ paid for their sins on the cross making it as though they never sinned, or ever will. God owes Jesus the salvation he purchased for them. This can happen in the womb or at any time in life. Only they, being born again, can they hear the gospel in truth and repent into a holy lifestyle.

 

[Albion]

Jesus paid for our sins on the cross. This means we are saved because God sees us as never having sinned. Never having sinned means God cannot punish you for sin but owes you complete restoration instead. This is why we go to heaven. That is how he saves us.

This ^ is complete nonsense.

It's one more example of what happens when anyone makes up his own religion and labels it "Christian." And of course it also violates the forum rules that limit posts here to "Christian Only."

 

[1689Dave]

This ^ is complete nonsense.

It's one more example of what happens when anyone makes up his own religion and labels it "Christian." And of course it also violates the forum rules that limit posts here to "Christian Only."

This is Bible and historic Creedal Christianity. Can you find a Creed I do not agree with? Prove it if you can.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus paid for our sins on the cross. This means we are saved because God sees us as never having sinned.

Here AGAIN is your heresy of repudiating faith; your foundational point of your apologetic that if Jesus died for all (as God says) that would mean all individuals have personal justification (the argument you raise ad nausium). But your point is not only unbiblical but heretical.

God in the Bible, John Calvin, the Church Fathers, a Church Council, the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Church and more all agree with God that Jesus died for all people and that faith is also essential to personal justification; the CROSS is "there" for all but faith is not. Thus, Christianity has embraced what the Bible states: Both the Cross and faith are essential to personal justification.

People are damned and helpless sinners. God arbitrarily chose some from among them by name for his glory. Christ paid for their sins on the cross making it as though they never sinned, or ever will. God owes Jesus the salvation he purchased for them. This can happen in the womb or at any time in life. Only they, being born again, can they hear the gospel in truth and repent into a holy lifestyle.

Here AGAIN is your heresy of repudiating faith. Again your foundational point of your apologetic that if Jesus died for all (as God says) that would mean all individuals have personal justification (the argument you raise ad nausium). But your point is not only unbiblical but heretical. You've just re-written John 3:16 (to correct God), "For God so loved some unknown few that He gave His son just for those few and they are saved whether they spit in His face and denounce His work or believe, it just doesn't matter, cuz God saves them regardless of faith, faith being a joke."



Here's God's view:


Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


We know you disagree with God here, insisting the exact opposite is true.


And here's God's view about faith and it's importance to personal justification:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)

But you disagree; your foundational apologetic is that if Christ died for all (as God says) then all are saved regardless of faith. Your view: If Jesus died for all then all have personal justification.


Yes, Jesus died for all exactly as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification.




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[1689Dave]

Here AGAIN is your heresy of repudiating faith; your foundational point of your apologetic that if Jesus died for all (as God says) that would mean all individuals have personal justification (the argument you raise ad nausium). But your point is not only unbiblical but heretical.

God in the Bible, John Calvin, the Church Fathers, a Church Council, the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Church and more all agree with God that Jesus died for all people and that faith is also essential to personal justification; the CROSS is "there" for all but faith is not. Thus, Christianity has embraced what the Bible states: Both the Cross and faith are essential to personal justification.




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What is faith? Spell it out and let's see what you think.

 

[Albion]

Christ must die and justify a person before they can experience faith which is a part of salvation.

That's a rather clumsy statement that would require more clarity before a reply would be in order. However, you've already stated--several times--that you do not believe in Faith as having any role in salvation.

 

[1689Dave]

That's a rather clumsy statement that would require more clarity before a reply would be in order. However, you've already stated--several times--that you do not believe in Faith as having any role in salvation.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have before you can believe in any true sense.

 

[Albion]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have before you can believe in any true sense.

That not only doesn't make sense, but it isn't in accord with what you have posted before.

 

[1689Dave]

That not only doesn't make sense, but it isn't in accord with what you have posted before.

I've always said only those whom God saves can have true faith. The rest who choose to believe are only fooling themselves.