Jesus died for the sins of the world

[Josiah]

@prism

No where in Acts do we see the Apostles say to any individual, "Jesus died for you",

Where does an Apostle anywhere state, "Jesus did NOT die for everyone but ONLY to some unknown few?"
Where does an Apostle anywhere state, "This gospel probably doesn't apply to you since the odds are Jesus didn't didn't die for you."
Where does an Apostle anywhere state, "You probably don't have forgiveness available to you since Jesus probably didn't die for you."


John was an Apostle, and he stated:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


Paul was an Apostle and he stated:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all


Do all 13-14 Apostles have to say this in all 27 NT books for it to be true?

Acts 13:48 KJV
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Sounds pretty limited to me.

I agree, but it's talking about FAITH. Yup, just as I've said (and the Limited Atonement guys here have repudiated), without faith, there is no personal justification, no eternal life for that person. Yup.

And as we've been saying, the doctrine of Election (or Presdestination) has always been directed to FAITH - those who are given faith, not to the Cross. Not everyone is ordained to believe. Yup, the Bible clearly says that. But nowhere does the Bible state, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few" in fact over and over and over, it verbatim, literally, in black and white words (including by Apostles) states the exact opposite of that, that He DID die for all people.

No, no Apostle in Acts (or anywhere) state, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few." Yes, they DID (often) say that: those without faith aren't saved, but let's stick to the issue here: Does the Bible state Jesus died for all OR does it state that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few? Universal vs. Limited Atonement. SURE, those who have not the work of the Cross APPLIED to them, APPREHENDED by them, TRUSTED by them aren't personally justified (just as all of us on this side of the isle have said over and over and over and over for months now) but that doesn't prove the Cross is subjective and relative, that He died ONLY for some (and no one knows who those were).


Did you read post 428? Do you have any specific questions about what is stated there?



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[Albion]

Man is so depraved, why would he care if Jesus loved him or not?
No where in Acts do we see the Apostles say to any individual, "Jesus died for you", rather it was a general call, and those who had ears to hear responded...

Acts 13:48 KJV
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Sounds pretty limited to me.

It is understandable that it might seem that way. I decided to check with recognized Bible authorities/commentators, the same ones that anybody can find easily with an internet search. I read what a number of them had to say. Naturally, there are others whom I didn't reach.

Somewhat to my surprise, I found not a single one of them who took the Calvinist POV, although most mentioned that this verse is a favorite of Calvinists.

It was pointed out by them that the word translated as "ordained" in the KJV doesn't mean--in the Greek language--something determined from all eternity to happen, but more like something that was made possible at the point in time when the event referred to was occurring. Also, that "the Gentiles" (a huge category of humans) who responded were disposed to do so by divine Grace given then, rather than in accordance with something God had decreed before Creation.

The Jews were God's chosen people, as we know, but now God allows that "the Gentiles" may be recipients of eternal life as well.

That's in accord with the divine will, all right, but not in any way is it a predestining of individual persons from all eternity.

 

[Josiah]

It is understandable that it might seem that way. I decided to check with recognized Bible authorities/commentators, the same ones that anybody can find easily with an internet search. I read what a number of them had to say. Naturally, there are others whom I didn't reach.

Somewhat to my surprise, I found not a single one of them who took the Calvinist POV, although most mentioned that this verse is a favorite of Calvinists.

It was pointed out by them that the word translated as "ordained" in the KJV doesn't mean--in the Greek language--something determined from all eternity to happen, but more like something that was made possible at the point in time when the event referred to was occurring. Also, that "the Gentiles" (a huge category of humans) who responded were disposed to do so by divine Grace given then, rather than in accordance with something God had decreed before Creation.

The Jews were God's chosen people, as we know, but now God allows that "the Gentiles" may be recipients of eternal life as well.

That's in accord with the divine will, all right, but not in any way is it a predestining of individual persons from all eternity.

Thank you, that's very helpful.

But EVEN IF this verse indicates that FAITH is an aspect of Election, it does NOT say that the CROSS is. The doctrine of Election (if one accepts it) says that God chooses before creation to whom FAITH will be given, and thus personal justification. Only in the most radical forms of Calvinism is the Cross the focus. Nowhere does the Bible ever state that Jesus only died for the elect, but one might conclude that it does teach that faith is only given to the elect. But I thank you, Albion, that evidently all the scholars you found note that the Greek doesn't state (or even imply) that either.


The topic before us, however, is this:

Does the Bible state that Jesus died for all people? (Universal Atonement)
OR
Does the Bible state that Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY for some unknown few? (Limited Atonement).


We've stated the many verses that state the first.
We're waiting for our Limited Atonement friends to list all those that state the second.



.this dot is dedicated to MoreCoffee

 

[1689Dave]

Let's not divert the thread to some hobby horse topic. Let's stick with "Did Jesus die for the sins of the world"

No, or they would all be saved. The poor limp-wristed godling as you would have him to be. Can't do what he supposedly wants most.

 

[Josiah]

No, or they would all be saved.

And here's your heresy of denying any role to faith. Your repudiation of the FAITH part of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Glory.

No grace. No faith. Just Jesus dying for the non-sinful, the righteous, those who don't need it. Why, who knows. But you evidently feel it includes you.

What an awful, terrifying non-Christian religion you are promoting. I PRAY you don't believe it. I sincerely do.



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[1689Dave]

And here's your heresy of denying any role to faith. Your repudiation of the FAITH part of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Glory.

No grace. No faith. Just Jesus dying for the non-sinful, the righteous, those who don't need it. Why, who knows. But you evidently feel it includes you.

What an awful, terrifying non-Christian religion you are promoting. I PRAY you don't believe it. I sincerely do.



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You need works to make it seem to work.

 

[brightfame52]

Really? Where exactly is that written in holy scripture?

I am not a protestant, so I do not usually expect holy scripture to contain a theological answer to questions. But I think you may be a Protestant, and it is common for Protestant posters on these kinds of forums to have bible proofs for everything that they think one ought to believe. So, I am waiting for the bible verses to prove your claims.

It tells you that in the verse. That world in Jn 1:29 had its sin taken away by the Lamb of God

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Thats Salvation, to have your sin taken away. Thats a saved world. And Im sure you realize the lost cant be part of this world of Jn 1:29

 

[MoreCoffee]

limp-wristed godling

Interesting bit of projection onto God or god or whatever it is your post is about.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It tells you that in the verse. That world in Jn 1:29 had its sin taken away by the Lamb of God

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Thats Salvation, to have your sin taken away. Thats a saved world. And Im sure you realize the lost cant be part of this world of Jn 1:29

A book on writing mathematical proofs or one on the philosophy of logic is helpful for formulating coherent arguments.

 

[Josiah]

You need works to make it seem to work.

@1689Dave


I reject your Pelagian. I reject your insistence that faith is NOT the work and gift of God but rather is the result of dead, fallen, unregerate, sinful, enemies of God - created by them and given to self. I think you and Pelagius are wrong about that. We believe faith is the gift and work of God - exactly as the Bible verbatim STATES. You are wrong. We holding that that is essential for personal justification (echoing what the Bible states) and that faith is 100% the work and gift of God (just as the Bible says) is correct, you insisting that makes us Pelagian because you agree with Peligius that faith is the word and gift of dead men to self is what is wrong.



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[brightfame52]

A book on writing mathematical proofs or one on the philosophy of logic is helpful for formulating coherent arguments.

Sorry fellow, the world in Jn 1:29 is sin free.

 

[Josiah]

Sorry fellow, the world in Jn 1:29 is sin free.

So Jesus only died for the sin free. How many people was that? Why would He do that? When Jesus died for you, where you sin free? Then why did He bother? What did He save you from?


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[prism]

Where does an Apostle anywhere state, "Jesus did NOT die for everyone but ONLY to some unknown few?"
Where does an Apostle anywhere state, "This gospel probably doesn't apply to you since the odds are Jesus didn't didn't die for you."
Where does an Apostle anywhere state, "You probably don't have forgiveness available to you since Jesus probably didn't die for you.

Ok, so neither has an answer for the other. No progress.

John was an Apostle, and he stated:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Jesus was the God/man and He stated...

John 17:9 (KJV) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Matthew 16:17 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:27 (KJV) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

So we can go on playing this game without any concrete answers

 

[prism]

There is a verse that says "Jesus died for the Elect" but none that say ONLY for the Elect. And there are verses that state that Jesus died for us (Christians) but none that state ONLY for us (indeed, see 1 John 2:2).

So unless the whole world is elect, Jesus died for some?

 

[Albion]

You need works to make it seem to work.

That, however, is a different issue.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just Jesus dying for the non-sinful, the righteous, those who don't need it.

That is an interesting way to define "the elect" of Calvinistic theology. It has considerable truth in it. Of course, Calvinists do not say, nor teach in writing that the elect are sinless and righteous, what they say instead is that they are elect to sinlessness and righteousness [in heaven] despite their undeserving wickedness. Yet being wicked and undeserving and so forth they are nevertheless "elect", chosen to be [eventually] sinless and righteous.

 

[prism]

Maybe you hadn't heard the name of Calvin. However, this doesn't mean that you had not been influenced by Calvinistic theorizing at some time, perhaps while not even being aware of the source.

Likewise you and Arminius.

 

[prism]

It is understandable that it might seem that way. I decided to check with recognized Bible authorities/commentators, the same ones that anybody can find easily with an internet search. I read what a number of them had to say. Naturally, there are others whom I didn't reach.

Somewhat to my surprise, I found not a single one of them who took the Calvinist POV, although most mentioned that this verse is a favorite of Calvinists.

It was pointed out by them that the word translated as "ordained" in the KJV doesn't mean--in the Greek language--something determined from all eternity to happen, but more like something that was made possible at the point in time when the event referred to was occurring. Also, that "the Gentiles" (a huge category of humans) who responded were disposed to do so by divine Grace given then, rather than in accordance with something God had decreed before Creation.

The Jews were God's chosen people, as we know, but now God allows that "the Gentiles" may be recipients of eternal life as well.

That's in accord with the divine will, all right, but not in any way is it a predestining of individual persons from all eternity.

Acts 13:48 KJV
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

τάσσω (pf. inf. τεταχέναι; pf. pass. τέταγμαι, 3 sg. τέτακται) appoint, designate, set aside; command, order, direct (ὑπὸ ἐξουσίαν τασσόμενος under the authority of superior officers #Lu 7:8); institute (of governmental authority); devote (to service); midd. equivalent to act. fix, set #Ac 28:23; tell, direct #Mt 28:16 -Concise Greek English Dictionary
Regarding your comment. -The expression "ordained to eternal life" (Acts 13:48) is also attested in rabbinic writings (see Billerbeck II, 726f.), though it does not refer to the predestination of the individual, but rather to the election of the totality of the saved, also. -

ACT.13:48. Though τάσσω in ACT.13:48 has sometimes been interpreted as meaning to choose, there seems to be far more involved than merely a matter of selection, since a relationship is specifically assigned. ὁρίζω: ὁ ὡρισμένος ὑπὸ του̂ θεου̂ κριτής the one designated by God as judge ACT.10:42. ἀναδείκνυμι: ἀνέδειξεν ὁ κύριος ἑτέρους ἑβδομήκοντα δύο the Lord appointed another seventy-two men LUK.10:1. τίθημι: ἔθηκα ὑμα̂ς ἵνα ὑμει̂ς ὑπάγητε καὶ καρπὸν φέρητε I appointed you to go and bear much fruit JHN.15:16.-Louw& Nida Lexicon

 

[1689Dave]

I reject your Pelagian. I reject your insistence that faith is NOT the work and gift of God but rather is the result of dead, fallen, unregerate, sinful, enemies of God - created by them and given to self. I think you and Pelagius are wrong about that. We believe faith is the gift and work of God - exactly as the Bible verbatim STATES. You are wrong. We holding that that is essential for personal justification (echoing what the Bible states) and that faith is 100% the work and gift of God (just as the Bible says) is correct, you insisting that makes us Pelagian because you agree with Peligius that faith is the word and gift of dead men to self is what is wrong.



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Smoke screen? False info? you reveal. Christ died for all? What about these? “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9:18 (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

Interesting bit of projection onto God or god or whatever it is your post is about.

Your so-called Free Will rules over him. He is nothing more than a spectator hoping for the best. This is not the God of the bible.