Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

[brightfame52]

Besides 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Which confirms being saved before believing, since believing follows the holy calling

Also Jude 1:1

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Gods elect were preserved in Jesus Christ prior to being called, which again one cant believe until called, but preserved in Jesus Christ is before called. The word preserved means:

1. to attend to carefully, take care of
   1. to guard
   2. metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
   3. to observe
   4. to reserve: to undergo something

Its also in the perfect tense which means it was a one time completed act in the past with present results.

Preserved is also a synonym for saved, safe !

 

[brightfame52]

Believe because saved first.

As a complimentary scripture that the believer was saved before they believed, and they believed because they had been saved or preserved. Lets look at a Psalm 37:28


For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

See that about His Saints ? Now who are His Saints that are preserved forever ? What actually constitutes one a Saint ? Is it there act of believing ? May it never be ! Its premised on what Christ did by way of His obeying the will of His God/ Father Heb 10:9-10

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

See that ? By Him doing the will of God, through that, He sanctified them He died for once and for all. That word sanctified means:

hagiazō :

1. to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2. to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
   1. consecrate things to God
   2. dedicate people to God
3. to purify
   1. to cleanse externally
   2. to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
   3. to purify internally by renewing of the soul

Now what is a Saint in Ps 37:28

Saint is the word ḥāsîḏ

1. faithful, kind, godly, holy one, saint, pious
   1. kind
   2. pious, godly
   3. faithful ones (subst)

All for whom Christ died His death made them holy ones, separated ones, in Jesus Christ, not in themselves.

And they are preserved forever which also speaks to their eternal security, and further preservation. They did nothing to beome a saint, a holy one, But Christ did.

 

[Josiah]

It does not say Jesus died for all

@1689Dave


Scripture DOES state - over and over again, in black-and-white words all can see, VERBATIM - that Jesus DID die for all.
And as you've shown, NEVER, not once, not ever, does Scripture state, "No, that's not right, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, exclusively, solely, for some unknown few people (and you'll need to guess which few that is)."

all are not saved

Correct. But you ASSUME this is because the Bible is so often wrong, the Bible errs, the Bible lies - and the reason for this is because Jesus did NOT die for all but only for a unknown few (and He didn't give a list of who these few are). So weird the Bible gets this key point SO wrong! And does so SO often! And also you just ignore all the verses that speak of faith so you don't notice that the Bible indicates not all have faith. Since the Cross and Faith are BOTH essential... and since you repudiate faith... you are left only with the Cross. And to keep from following all those Universalists who split off from Calvinism 300 years ago, you have to deny all those Scriptures that verbatim state Christ died for all, you have to call out God for making a really big mistake (and leave us wondering why you got it right but God never did).



.

 

[Josiah]

Here's what Scripture actually STATES. Here's what God thinks about this....

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Now, fell free to quote verbatim the Scriptures that state:

"No, that's wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few"

"No, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for the Elect and you won't be told who those are."

"No, Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY for those who eventually will decide for Jesus."


Now, stop the gross logical fallacy of insisting that if something is true for one, it ergo is not true for others. Called "False Equilivalization" it's like this: "Ford makes cars" and therefore stating, ONLY Ford makes cars. Or "I love my wife" and insisting that ergo no one else loves her. Stop all the absurd, silly logical fallacies.... just quote the verse that states what you do: That all those Scriptures are wrong, 2000 years of Chrsitianity is wrong, Jesus did NOT (the first essential word) die for all but ONLY (the second essential word) for some unknown few, a few whose names are not given. But you won't... because you can't. You view (the OPPOSITE of what the Bible verbatim, so often states) is simply false.




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[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


Scripture DOES state - over and over again, in black-and-white words all can see, VERBATIM - that Jesus DID die for all.
And as you've shown, NEVER, not once, not ever, does Scripture state, "No, that's not right, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, exclusively, solely, for some unknown few people (and you'll need to guess which few that is)."





Correct. But you ASSUME this is because the Bible is so often wrong, the Bible errs, the Bible lies - and the reason for this is because Jesus did NOT die for all but only for a unknown few (and He didn't give a list of who these few are). So weird the Bible gets this key point SO wrong! And does so SO often! And also you just ignore all the verses that speak of faith so you don't notice that the Bible indicates not all have faith. Since the Cross and Faith are BOTH essential... and since you repudiate faith... you are left only with the Cross. And to keep from following all those Universalists who split off from Calvinism 300 years ago, you have to deny all those Scriptures that verbatim state Christ died for all, you have to call out God for making a really big mistake (and leave us wondering why you got it right but God never did).



.

Can't you see that you are presenting a flawed interpretation in place of scripture? I have ample scriptures that limit Christ's atonement to many. To the elect, to the exclusion of the Pharisees, and such.

 

[Lamb]

Can't you see that you are presenting a flawed interpretation in place of scripture? I have ample scriptures that limit Christ's atonement to many. To the elect, to the exclusion of the Pharisees, and such.

He's actually presented the accurate translation and interpretation of scripture.

 

[Josiah]

He's actually presented the accurate translation and interpretation of scripture.

It's not ME our friend so persistently, so passionately disagrees with. It's God.

I just verbatim, word-for-word, QUOTED Scripture. Dave has a huge problem with what God states.


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[1689Dave]

He's actually presented the accurate translation and interpretation of scripture.

For Pelagians only. He ignores the big picture and substitutes his interpretation for scripture. This is eisegesis when you ignore the many scriptures that force a different meaning onto the passage.

 

[Lamb]

For Pelagians only. He ignores the big picture and substitutes his interpretation for scripture. This is eisegesis when you ignore the many scriptures that force a different meaning onto the passage.

Since there are more scriptures than you've ever provided, I'd say his eisegesis is the correct one.

 

[1689Dave]

Since there are more scriptures than you've ever provided, I'd say his eisegesis is the correct one.

Are you agreeing that Universal Atonement comes from eisegesis?

 

[Lamb]

Are you agreeing that Universal Atonement comes from eisegesis?

I'm not agreeing with anything you claim concerning Universal Atonement.

And I mean to say exegesis.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is "universal atonement" the new buzzword in these here parts?

Now, concerning the thread topic, which seems to be "is faith the cause of one's salvation or not?", the short answer is no, faith is not the cause of anyone's salvation.

 

[Josiah]

This is eisegesis when you ignore the many scriptures that force a different meaning onto the passage.

This made me literally laugh out loud.....


YOU are the one totally, completely ignoring ALL the many Scriptures that literally, word-for-word, verbatim, in black-and-white words that my four year old son and read, all those that flat out state "Jesus died for all people." Instead, by a very extreme form of eisegesis, just insert the word "NOT" into each verse to entirely deny and negate the words and make them proclaim the OPPOSITE of what they state. You are just reversing and denying the verse. That's GOT to be THE most radical, extreme form of eisegesis there is.

Meanwhile, you don't have one verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few." Because it never says that. You create it by inserting the words "NOT" and/or "ONLY" into texts to entirely reverse and change what the words say. The most silly, most extreme form of eisegesis possible (and a PROFOUND disrespect for God and His Word).



.

 

[Josiah]

Now, concerning the thread topic, which seems to be "is faith the cause of one's salvation or not?", the short answer is no, faith is not the cause of anyone's salvation.

There are Scriptures that speak that way. But the Protestant view is often conveyed by 4 Latin phrases forming ONE united, inseparable doctrine.

Sola Gratia (Grace Alone). “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8, see also Romans 6:23, Titus 3:5, etc.). This places emphasis that our salvation flows from God’s heart – not ours. Grace is God’s unmerited, unconditional love. Grace in this context means a free gift, a blessing. Grace means “getting what we don’t deserve.” It is “God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense” Some Catholics refer to this as "initial grace."

Solus Christus (Christ Alone). Christ is the Savior. “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). “There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved” (Acts 4:12). “No one comes to the Father except by Me” (John 14:6). Christ IS our Savior and our salvation. It’s CHRIST’s perfect live, CHRIST’s perfect sacrifice, CHRIST’s triumphant resurrection! Christ is the object of our faith. It is not how much we believe or how good we believe but in Whom we believe; our focus is on the quality of Christ’s work rather than on the quality of our faith; HE is our certainty.

Sola Fide (Faith Alone). The Cross applied/apprehended to us by faith. “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved!” (Acts 16:30-31. Also see John 3:16, Acts 10:43, etc.). This proclaims that His grace and salvation are embraced by God’s gift of faith. Faith means to trust or rely upon. It means to have active confidence or reliance especially upon something “unseen” or “unproven.”

Soli Deo Gloria (To God Alone be the glory). This simply proclaims that God gets ALL the credit for my personal justification (salvation). His works, not mine. He is the Savior, not me.

“For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) will not perish but has everlasting life!” Soli Deo Gloria!


So, no.... faith is not the CAUSE, it "starts in the heart of God" (Grace is typically stated by Protestants as the cause), but CHRIST is the basis for justification - He is the Savior. But faith is the divine gift where by this grace and cross are apprehended/trusted/applied to the individual.

Now, obviously, once "born again" and once having spiritual life and no longer void of spiritual life, no longer enemies of God... now with the Holy Spirit in us - a whole other reality comes into play. Grace now ALSO calls and empowers us into a new life.... we are called to holiness, to love, to service and we are to grow in that. But that's a different topic.

You can insist that Catholicism teaches something different - and I won't argue that point - but you seem to be directing the question to Protestants.



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[MoreCoffee]

But the Protestant view

A protestant view, maybe. Surely, not one held by all Protestants.

 

[Josiah]

A protestant view, maybe. Surely, not one held by all Protestants.

True enough. Just as if you ask 10 Catholics about this, you'll get 10 different answers (I KNOW!!). You probably skipped over where I said "is often" and assumed I wrote instead, "is always." What I shared in post 74 is the classic, reformation view. I've shared the exact same thing many times here and at other websites since 1999.... and I have yet to have a Protestant disagree (a couple of Catholics but not Protestants). I think GENERALLY, it's accepted. It is "often" put that way but not "always" among every Protestant now or ever alive. You're right - there are ways that synergistic Arminianists would expand on this, they might say "Jesus is the Savior because he opened the door to heaven but you gotten get yourself through it by what you do" (DO here might be defined differently). There are some syergists and slight Pelagians among modern "Evangelicals." Yup. I know that. We've had some with that belief here at CH in the past (although I'm not sure any now).

 

[1689Dave]

This made me literally laugh out loud.....


YOU are the one totally, completely ignoring ALL the many Scriptures that literally, word-for-word, verbatim, in black-and-white words that my four year old son and read, all those that flat out state "Jesus died for all people." Instead, by a very extreme form of eisegesis, just insert the word "NOT" into each verse to entirely deny and negate the words and make them proclaim the OPPOSITE of what they state. You are just reversing and denying the verse. That's GOT to be THE most radical, extreme form of eisegesis there is.

Meanwhile, you don't have one verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few." Because it never says that. You create it by inserting the words "NOT" and/or "ONLY" into texts to entirely reverse and change what the words say. The most silly, most extreme form of eisegesis possible (and a PROFOUND disrespect for God and His Word).



.

You substitute an unreasonable definition of the "world" to promote your Pelagianism. Does God love every person born? No. He hates them. But his mercy becomes the fullest when he saves those he hates. Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” Psalm 5:5. Pelagius denied this. John 3:16 does not mean people as the world. They are all born workers of iniquity God hates.

 

[Josiah]

You substitute an unreasonable definition of the "world" to promote your Pelagianism. Does God love every person born? No. He hates them. But his mercy becomes the fullest when he saves those he hates. Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” Psalm 5:5. Pelagius denied this. John 3:16 does not mean people as the world. They are all born workers of iniquity God hates.

Peligianism is all on your end. But that's not topic here, it's just ONE of a countless series of logical fallacies you employ (this one, a red herring).

You seem to have no clue what grace is. "While we were ENEMIES of God, Christ died for us.' I know, you'll just add a "NOT" to this to deny what it says, cuz that's just what you do.

In John, "world" carries the connotation of sinful, fallen, enemies... "worldly." John is saying that God loves his enemies, the sinful, the fallen. Does he also hate them, of course - "hate" meaning to disapprove, God always strongly disapproves of sin. But does He love sinful people, enemies? Yup, that's the whole point of grace (over your head, as is MUCH of Christianity). Now you are not only repudiating the FAITH part of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Gloria, but now you're repudiating the grace part, too.

If Jesus ONLY died for the righteous, the non-sinful... then He died for no one. Which just might be your whole theology.


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[1689Dave]

Peligianism is all on your end. But that's not topic here, it's just ONE of a countless series of logical fallacies you employ (this one, a red herring).

You seem to have no clue what grace is. "While we were ENEMIES of God, Christ died for us.' I know, you'll just add a "NOT" to this to deny what it says, cuz that's just what you do.

In John, "world" carries the connotation of sinful, fallen, enemies... "worldly." John is saying that God loves his enemies, the sinful, the fallen. Does he also hate them, of course - "hate" meaning to disapprove, God always strongly disapproves of sin. But does He love sinful people, enemies? Yup, that's the whole point of grace (over your head, as is MUCH of Christianity). Now you are not only repudiating the FAITH part of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Gloria, but now you're repudiating the grace part, too.

If Jesus ONLY died for the righteous, the non-sinful... then He died for no one. Which just might be your whole theology.


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If Jesus did not justify you, and impute his righteousness, you are without hope and wasting your time trying to justify yourself. Might as well party your life away.

 

[Josiah]

If Jesus did not justify you, and impute his righteousness, you are without hope and wasting your time trying to justify yourself. Might as well party your life away.

Correct.

If you are right and Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown FEW, then odds are you are wasting your time. And when you tell others there is forgiveness for them, you are being dishonest because according to you, it probably is NOT (Jesus likely did not die for them, there is no Gospel for them, there is no eternal life for them since Jesus never died for them).

Dave, His work on the Cross is conveyed to us not magically but by faith. Without faith, there is not personal justification. Faith trusts/relies... apprehends/applies the Cross FOR US to us. You are wrong when you INSIST (over and over and over) that if Jesus died for all then all are saved; all that matters is Christ's Cross, faith is nothing and matters not at all. No, you are wrong - as all of us have been telling you for weeks, you calling us Pelagians for saying that and quoting Scriptures that STATE faith is essential.

Friend, you are working HARD to deny the role of faith. You keep insisting - over and over and over, ad nausium - that faith is irreleveant, moot, a joke, unnecessary. You keep insisting "If Jesus died for all then all are saved" repudiating any role for faith, any need for faith, so that whether one denies him and spits in His face or trust/apprehends the Cross for them matters not at all. Every time we bring up faith, you impose your Pelagianism (or what you THINK is Pelagianism) on us: that if faith is involve, then works-rightouseness and synergism is involved because you PASSIONATELY disagree with all us here that faith is NOT our doing but is the work and gift of God ALONE. You reject that, insist that faith is the work of fallen, unregenerate, atheistic unbelief and that dead self creates and gives to self. When we disagree with you (which we all have COUNTLESS times ) you insist we are free-will "works righteousness" because faith is not the work of God but of dead sinners. You ARE wrong about that, even if you INSIST it's we who are wrong on that point.



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