Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism.

[Josiah]

1689Dave said:


Why is Universal Atonement Pelagianism? Because Pelagius’s denial of original sin made the atonement unnecessary.

@1689Dave


1. Universal Atonement does not state that Jesus didn't die. It says that Christ DID die. For all.

2. Universal Atonement does not deny original sin or teach free will. It says that Jesus died for all.

1689Dave said:


This is tantamount to saying Christ’s death on the cross didn’t save anyone.

In and of itself, the Cross exclusive of faith does not bring personal justification to the individual because faith is also essential. Your denial of the role of faith is a heresy and obviously unbiblical. Your whole apologetic rests on faith being irrelevant, your repudiation of the Sola Fide part of justification. You are wrong on that, you are indeed a gross heretic on that point.

Your position wholly depends on John 3:16 actually stating, "For God so loved just a few unknown persons (odds are, not you) so that He gave His only begotten son to a few unknown persons (odds are not you) so that whether one repudiates and denies Christ and spits on Him it just doesn't matter, he has eternal life cuz faith is irrelevant and meaningless." No. The Bible holds that BOTH the CROSS of Christ and personal FAITH are necessary for personal justification.

We reject your repudiation of faith, the fundamental point of your apologetic, that faith has no role in personal justification, your elimination of the "sola fide" aspect of Justification (Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Gloria).

And you are wrong that faith can only exist if the dead, unregenerate, fallen, atheistic enemy of God creates faith and gives it to self. Your position is Pelagianism and it is a heresy. Faith is the work of God, the gift of God. IF you agreed that faith is relevant, you'd still be a heretic because you reject that faith is the gift and work of God. Here you reject the Soli Deo Gloria aspect of personal justification.

1689Dave said:


The Universalists say that the atonement only makes salvation possible for those who choose to save themselves.

No. Universalists (an off shoot of radical Calvinism) teaches that faith is irrelevant, just like you. Since the Bible is right when it says Jesus died for all and since they agree with you that faith is moot and irrelevant to personal justification, thus all are saved. These branch off of radical Calvinism are heretics for the same reason you are: they complelely deny the role of faith.

1689Dave said:


Both Pelagianism and Universal Atonement are bound to the idea of Free Will choice to bring about salvation.

Again, please underline the part of Universal Atonement that states WE do something. Here's the doctrine: "Jesus died for all." Now, embolden the words about what we do because honestly, Dave, I don't see those words. Frankly, I think here's another case where your whole theology is based on invisisble words not there and the complete repudiation of words that are there - and yup, it's lead you to horrible and heretical views.


All of us in this discussion with you are monergists who hold that faith is ONLY and PURELY the work and gift of God, that no one can or does create faith or give it to themselves, so that's the contradiction of Pelagianism and "free-will" theology, but it's irrelevant here because you don't believe that has anything to do with salvation, you (like the Universalists who split off radical Calvinism some 300 years ago) insist that all that matters is the Cross, faith is a joke, faith means nothing, faith is irrelevant.



"Universal Atonement"
The echo of Scripture that state "Jesus died for all people"
That's the teaching. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing other.
It does not say all are therefore personally justified (since not all have faith) but Christ did die for them.

Just a few Scriptures that state this:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


"Limited Atonement"
The repudiation of the above Scriptures and the teaching instead that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.
That's the dogma. It hinges entirely on the "NOT" and "ONLY'

Here are the Scriptures that state this:

Crickets.




.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


1. Universal Atonement does not state that Jesus didn't die. It says that Christ DID die. For all.

2. Universal Atonement does not deny original sin or teach free will. It says that Jesus died for all.






In and of itself, the Cross exclusive of faith does not bring personal justification to the individual because faith is also essential. Your denial of the role of faith is a heresy and obviously unbiblical. Your whole apologetic rests on faith being irrelevant, your repudiation of the Sola Fide part of justification. You are wrong on that, you are indeed a gross heretic on that point.

Your position wholly depends on John 3:16 actually stating, "For God so loved just a few unknown persons (odds are, not you) so that He gave His only begotten son to a few unknown persons (odds are not you) so that whether one repudiates and denies Christ and spits on Him it just doesn't matter, he has eternal life cuz faith is irrelevant and meaningless." No. The Bible holds that BOTH the CROSS of Christ and personal FAITH are necessary for personal justification.

We reject your repudiation of faith, the fundamental point of your apologetic, that faith has no role in personal justification, your elimination of the "sola fide" aspect of Justification (Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Gloria).





No. Universalists (an off shoot of radical Calvinism) teaches that faith is irrelevant, just like you. Since the Bible is right when it says Jesus died for all and since they agree with you that faith is moot and irrelevant to personal justification, thus all are saved. These branch off of radical Calvinism are heretics for the same reason you are: they complelely deny the role of faith.





Again, please underline the part of Universal Atonement that states WE do something. Here's the doctrine: "Jesus died for all." Now, embolden the words about what we do because honestly, Dave, I don't see those words. Frankly, I think here's another case where your whole theology is based on invisisble words not there and the complete repudiation of words that are there - and yup, it's lead you to horrible and heretical views.


All of us in this discussion with you are monergists who hold that faith is ONLY and PURELY the work and gift of God, that no one can or does create faith or give it to themselves, so that's the contradiction of Pelagianism and "free-will" theology, but it's irrelevant here because you don't believe that has anything to do with salvation, you (like the Universalists who split off radical Calvinism some 300 years ago) insist that all that matters is the Cross, faith is a joke, faith means nothing, faith is irrelevant.



"Universal Atonement"
The echo of Scripture that state "Jesus died for all people"
That's the teaching. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing other.
It does not say all are therefore personally justified (since not all have faith) but Christ did die for them.

Just a few Scriptures that state this:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


"Limited Atonement"
The repudiation of the above Scriptures and the teaching instead that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.
That's the dogma. It hinges entirely on the "NOT" and "ONLY'

Here are the Scriptures that state this:

Crickets.




.

Universal Atonement says his death didn't save one single person. It only enabled the self-righteous to save themselves. Paul says Christ died for our sins meaning we are saved by his blood.

 

[Josiah]

Universal Atonement says his death didn't save one single person.

Because unlike you, we uphold that faith is also essential.

You, like the Universalist who broke off from radical Calvinists, insist that ALL that matters is the Cross, personal faith is irrelevant.

It only enabled the self-righteous to save themselves.

Your embrace of Pelagianism is a heresy. I reject it. Your fundamental view (the key point of your apologetic) is a heresy.

We hold that no one can save themselves - in whole or in part. The Cross is essential, personal faith is essential - both are the work and gift of God.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Because unlike you, we uphold that faith is also essential.

You, like the Universalist who broke off from radical Calvinists, insist that ALL that matters is the Cross, personal faith is irrelevant.




Your embrace of Pelagianism is a heresy. I reject it. Your fundamental view (the key point of your apologetic) is a heresy.

We hold that no one can save themselves - in whole or in part. The Cross is essential, personal faith is essential - both are the work and gift of God.



.

Human faith cannot save a soul. Bible faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. That is, God must save a person before they can have Biblical faith.

 

[1689Dave]

Notice, you should post Replies to the debate-approved thread I originally posted. This thread is a copy now posted as a derail in a non-debate thread.

 

[Josiah]

Human faith cannot save a soul. Bible faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. That is, God must save a person before they can have Biblical faith.

@1689Dave
@Albion
@Origen
@ Lamb


Dave,

As we've all repeatedly (so often!) stated, BOTH the Cross of Christ and personal faith are essential. We've rejected that the Cross ONLY is essential. You've rejected that, insisting that only the Cross matters, "if Christ died for all then all are saved" you've insisted over and over and over and over - in hundreds of posts. Every time we bring up faith, you denounce it, declaring your Pelagianism and insisting that if the divine gift of faith is involved, then that's a denial of sin, an embrace of self-righteousness and works-righteousness, and proves each saves self on their own (you have a more extreme heretical view here than Peligius actually did).

Universal Atonement holds that Jesus died for all people. The soul cannot save itself, a sacrifice of innocent blood was essential -and that CHRIST did that, not any person. The view does NOT hold that ergo are are personally justified because unlike you and your Universalist buddies, we don't repudiate the role of faith, we don't fundamentally insist that ONLY the Cross is needed, we don't hold that faith is irrelevant. We hold that it's the CROSS and FAITH - both/and - both are completely the work and gift of God. You have been repudiating this view in some 500 posts in many threads, just repeatedly insisting, "If Christ died for all then all are personally justified." When we bring up faith, you repudiate that, imosing your extreme form Pelagianism and insisting that faith is something each gives self (a good work of self).


The "problem" with your view not only is the incredible series of logical fallacies (honestly, I don't think I've ever in my life seen so many in one discussion) and the obvious contradiction of SO many verbatim Scriptures with not one verse that states what you do.. but also your Pelagianism. Your view that if faith (the divine gift of God that apprehends the Cross) is essential, that means a repudiation of original sin and the imputation of self-righteousness and works righteousness. Note the title of this thread, your whole point is that faith is irrelevant and that faith is something the unregenerate, sinful, fallen, atheistic, totally deprives person creates and gives to self because he can and because you deny original sin. We've consistently rejected your extreme form of Pelagianism. Faith is NOT created by self, it is NOT a work of self and does not "equal Pelagianism and works righteousness" as you insist. We keep saying it is SOLELY, ONLY the work and gift of God. You've instead insisted the opposite - and that it's irrelevant anyway since all that matters is the Cross, faith being moot, irrelevant, a joke - "if Christ died for you, you ARE personally justified" you over and over and over again insist, always denouncing us as heretics since we hold that faith is also essential.


+ We hold that the Cross is essential. Christ died for all people because the Bible over and over and over again, literally, verbatim, states that (and we won't deny it). And we hold that Cross is essential because we need justification due to our sin and that ONLY Christ can do that (we cannot contribute anything) because of our total depravity. The CROSS is essential, and it is the work of God.

+ We hold that faith is essential, the personal apprehension/application of the atonement of the Cross, and that this faith is the work and gift of God, not something we can or do create and/or give to self. We note your constant condemnation of us for holding to this, insisting (repeatedly) that if faith is invovled then personal justification is a matter of self justifying self since your foundational apologetic is that faith can only exist if self creates and gives it to self, thus faith to you = self righteousness and works righteousness.

+ We hold to the classical and biblical view of personal justification: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Glory (as one united teaching) which you so strongly repudiate.
Sola Gratia - it's ALL a matter of God's grace, mercy, agape, NOTHING to do with our merit or works.
Solus Christus - Christ achieved justification by His life, death and resurrection. The CROSS of Jesus
Sola Fide - The benefits of which we apprehend/embrace via faith which is the divine gift of God
Soli Deo Gloria - ALL of which is the unmerited work and gift of God; all the glory for this is God's

You repudiate and condemn us for the last two (and question the first through your imputation of Pelagianism). You hold that ONLY the Cross is necessary, thus your endless (ad nasium) statement, "If Christ died for all then all are saved" and your constant insistence that if faith is involved, that makes it something we do via works-righteousness. IMO, your opinion is even worse than the Universalist split-off from radical Calvinism, they also rejecting Sola Fide.


Read post 81.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism

Pelagianism. This theological position emerged in the early fifth century in connection with the writings of the British monk *Pelagius. It was enhanced and developed by disciples after the death of Pelagius and came to affirm the ideas that original sin is not a sound biblical doctrine and that the human will is completely free to choose either good or evil. Individual salvation or damnation depends upon that choice. This view was rejected by the church largely because of the influence of *Augustine of Hippo.


Feldmeth, N. P. (2008). In Pocket Dictionary of Church History: Over 300 Terms Clearly and Concisely Defined (p. 112). IVP Academic.

Why is Universal Atonement Pelagianism? Because Pelagius’s denial of original sin made the atonement unnecessary. This is tantamount to saying Christ’s death on the cross didn’t save anyone. Just as Universal Atonement doesn’t save anyone. The Universalists say that the atonement only makes salvation possible for those who choose to save themselves. Both Pelagianism and Universal Atonement are bound to the idea of Free Will choice to bring about salvation.

@1689Dave
@Albion
@Origen
@ Lamb


Dave,

As we've all repeatedly (so often!) stated, BOTH the Cross of Christ and personal faith are essential. We've rejected that the Cross ONLY is essential. You've rejected that, insisting that only the Cross matters, "if Christ died for all then all are saved" you've insisted over and over and over and over - in hundreds of posts. Every time we bring up faith, you denounce it, declaring your Pelagianism and insisting that if the divine gift of faith is involved, then that's a denial of sin, an embrace of self-righteousness and works-righteousness, and proves each saves self on their own (you have a more extreme heretical view here than Peligius actually did).

Universal Atonement holds that Jesus died for all people. The soul cannot save itself, a sacrifice of innocent blood was essential -and that CHRIST did that, not any person. The view does NOT hold that ergo are are personally justified because unlike you and your Universalist buddies, we don't repudiate the role of faith, we don't fundamentally insist that ONLY the Cross is needed, we don't hold that faith is irrelevant. We hold that it's the CROSS and FAITH - both/and - both are completely the work and gift of God. You have been repudiating this view in some 500 posts in many threads, just repeatedly insisting, "If Christ died for all then all are personally justified." When we bring up faith, you repudiate that, imosing your extreme form Pelagianism and insisting that faith is something each gives self (a good work of self).


The "problem" with your view not only is the incredible series of logical fallacies (honestly, I don't think I've ever in my life seen so many in one discussion) and the obvious contradiction of SO many verbatim Scriptures with not one verse that states what you do.. but also your Pelagianism. Your view that if faith (the divine gift of God that apprehends the Cross) is essential, that means a repudiation of original sin and the imputation of self-righteousness and works righteousness. Note the title of this thread, your whole point is that faith is irrelevant and that faith is something the unregenerate, sinful, fallen, atheistic, totally deprives person creates and gives to self because he can and because you deny original sin. We've consistently rejected your extreme form of Pelagianism. Faith is NOT created by self, it is NOT a work of self and does not "equal Pelagianism and works righteousness" as you insist. We keep saying it is SOLELY, ONLY the work and gift of God. You've instead insisted the opposite - and that it's irrelevant anyway since all that matters is the Cross, faith being moot, irrelevant, a joke - "if Christ died for you, you ARE personally justified" you over and over and over again insist, always denouncing us as heretics since we hold that faith is also essential.


+ We hold that the Cross is essential. Christ died for all people because the Bible over and over and over again, literally, verbatim, states that (and we won't deny it). And we hold that Cross is essential because we need justification due to our sin and that ONLY Christ can do that (we cannot contribute anything) because of our total depravity. The CROSS is essential, and it is the work of God.

+ We hold that faith is essential, the personal apprehension/application of the atonement of the Cross, and that this faith is the work and gift of God, not something we can or do create and/or give to self. We note your constant condemnation of us for holding to this, insisting (repeatedly) that if faith is invovled then personal justification is a matter of self justifying self since your foundational apologetic is that faith can only exist if self creates and gives it to self, thus faith to you = self righteousness and works righteousness.

+ We hold to the classical and biblical view of personal justification: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Glory (as one united teaching) which you so strongly repudiate.
Sola Gratia - it's ALL a matter of God's grace, mercy, agape, NOTHING to do with our merit or works.
Solus Christus - Christ achieved justification by His life, death and resurrection. The CROSS of Jesus
Sola Fide - The benefits of which we apprehend/embrace via faith which is the divine gift of God
Soli Deo Gloria - ALL of which is the unmerited work and gift of God; all the glory for this is God's

You repudiate and condemn us for the last two (and question the first through your imputation of Pelagianism). You hold that ONLY the Cross is necessary, thus your endless (ad nasium) statement, "If Christ died for all then all are saved" and your constant insistence that if faith is involved, that makes it something we do via works-righteousness. IMO, your opinion is even worse than the Universalist split-off from radical Calvinism, they also rejecting Sola Fide.






.

Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism

Pelagianism. This theological position emerged in the early fifth century in connection with the writings of the British monk *Pelagius. It was enhanced and developed by disciples after the death of Pelagius and came to affirm the ideas that original sin is not a sound biblical doctrine and that the human will is completely free to choose either good or evil. Individual salvation or damnation depends upon that choice. This view was rejected by the church largely because of the influence of *Augustine of Hippo.


Feldmeth, N. P. (2008). In Pocket Dictionary of Church History: Over 300 Terms Clearly and Concisely Defined (p. 112). IVP Academic.

Why is Universal Atonement Pelagianism? Because Pelagius’s denial of original sin made the atonement unnecessary. This is tantamount to saying Christ’s death on the cross didn’t save anyone. Just as Universal Atonement doesn’t save anyone. The Universalists say that the atonement only makes salvation possible for those who choose to save themselves. Both Pelagianism and Universal Atonement are bound to the idea of Free Will choice to bring about salvation.

 

[Josiah]

Why is Universal Atonement Pelagianism? Because Pelagius’s denial of original sin made the atonement unnecessary. This is tantamount to saying Christ’s death on the cross didn’t save anyone. Just as Universal Atonement doesn’t save anyone. The Universalists say that the atonement only makes salvation possible for those who choose to save themselves. Universalists say that the atonement only makes salvation possible for those who choose to save themselves

Read post 81 and 86.

Universal Atonement is Pelagian pure and simple. Condemned as heresy by the Church in 431.

@1689Dave


The Council of Ephesus did NOT condemn Universal Atonement.

The Council of Ephesus condemned Pelaganism - part of which is essential to your apologetic for Limited Atonement, your view that faith (if it exists) is by necessity a human work, a good work of the unregenerate, and thus makes justification synergistic. This Pelagian view is foundational to your whole apologetic about Universal Atonement's permitting of the role of faith being condemned by you as synergistic. When we state that faith is essential (not ONLY the Cross), you condemn it as Pelagian because, like Palagius, you hold that faith is the work of self and if it is added to the Cross makes personal justification synergistic.


When we deny your Universalist heresy that if Christ died for all then all are saved, when we insist that faith ALSO matters, that the Cross AND faith are both essential, you declare us to be Pelagianist, Synergists and free-will Baptists because you proclaim the Pelagian heresy that faith is the work of man whereas we all believe it is the work of God. We totally reject your Pelagian view of faith and justification.


Of course, affirming that the Bible states Jesus died for all people (Universal Atonement) does NOT state that we must do anything, it only affirms that Jesus did something. And everyone here who affirms this biblical teaching believe (passionately) that personal faith (just like the Cross) is the work entirely of God, NONE of it (not 0.00000000000000001% of it) is something unregenerate dead atheists do; both the Cross and Faith are totally, completely God's work, totally monergistic, and thus devoid of any synergism or "free will" or "works righteous." Thus your embrace of Pelagianism and insistence that we must hold to it too is absurd and illogical, we totally reject and condemn it (and thus your insistence that if Jesus died for all then all are personally justified). Unlike you (and your Universalists friends) we neither reject the role of faith in personal justification nor teach faith is the work of the unsaved which he gives to himself. We embrace the role of faith (echoing the Bible) and that faith is the sole work of God (echoing the Bible).



.

 

[1689Dave]

Read post 81 and 86.




@1689Dave


The Council of Ephesus did NOT condemn Universal Atonement.

The Council of Ephesus condemned Pelaganism - part of which is essential to your apologetic for Limited Atonement, your view that faith (if it exists) is by necessity a human work, a good work of the unregenerate, and thus makes justification synergistic. This Pelagian view is foundational to your whole apologetic about Universal Atonement's permitting of the role of faith being condemned by you as synergistic. When we state that faith is essential (not ONLY the Cross), you condemn it as Pelagian because, like Palagius, you hold that faith is the work of self and if it is added to the Cross makes personal justification synergistic.


When we deny your Universalist heresy that if Christ died for all then all are saved, when we insist that faith ALSO matters, that the Cross AND faith are both essential, you declare us to be Pelagianist, Synergists and free-will Baptists because you proclaim the Pelagian heresy that faith is the work of man whereas we all believe it is the work of God. We totally reject your Pelagian view of faith and justification.


Of course, affirming that the Bible states Jesus died for all people (Universal Atonement) does NOT state that we must do anything, it only affirms that Jesus did something. And everyone here who affirms this biblical teaching believe (passionately) that personal faith (just like the Cross) is the work entirely of God, NONE of it (not 0.00000000000000001% of it) is something unregenerate dead atheists do; both the Cross and Faith are totally, completely God's work, totally monergistic, and thus devoid of any synergism or "free will" or "works righteous." Thus your embrace of Pelagianism and insistence that we must hold to it too is absurd and illogical, we totally reject and condemn it (and thus your insistence that if Jesus died for all then all are personally justified). Unlike you (and your Universalists friends) we neither reject the role of faith in personal justification nor teach faith is the work of the unsaved which he gives to himself. We embrace the role of faith (echoing the Bible) and that faith is the sole work of God (echoing the Bible).



.

Ephesus condemned Pelagianism Universal atonement IS Pelagianism

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ephesus condemned Pelagianism

Pelagianism was decisively condemned at the Council of Carthage in 418 AD, and is still regarded as heretical by the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church.

Unlimited atonement (sometimes called general atonement or universal atonement) is a doctrine in Protestant Christianity that is normally associated with Amyraldism (four-point Calvinism), as well as Arminianism and other non-Calvinist traditions. The doctrine states that Jesus died as a propitiation for the benefit of all humans without exception. It is a doctrine distinct from other elements of the Calvinist acronym TULIP and is contrary to the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement.

Universal atonement is not historically linked to Pelagius. It is related to Arminianism and is not Pelagianism.

 

[1689Dave]

Pelagianism was decisively condemned at the Council of Carthage in 418 AD, and is still regarded as heretical by the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church.

Unlimited atonement (sometimes called general atonement or universal atonement) is a doctrine in Protestant Christianity that is normally associated with Amyraldism (four-point Calvinism), as well as Arminianism and other non-Calvinist traditions. The doctrine states that Jesus died as a propitiation for the benefit of all humans without exception. It is a doctrine distinct from other elements of the Calvinist acronym TULIP and is contrary to the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement.

Universal atonement is not historically linked to Pelagius. It is related to Arminianism and is not Pelagianism.

Free will needs Universal "Atonement" in order to work. This is Pelagianism. An atonement that does not atone or all would be saved.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Free will needs Universal "Atonement" in order to work. This is Pelagianism. An atonement that does not atone or all would be saved.

It suffices me to believe that human beings have been graced with a will; it's freedom or lack of it is more like icing on a cake than a necessary part of being alive.

 

[1689Dave]

It suffices me to believe that human beings have been graced with a will; it's freedom or lack of it is more like icing on a cake than a necessary part of being alive.

What you miss, is, the will only chooses evil.

 

[Josiah]

Why is Universal Atonement Pelagianism? Because Pelagius’s denial of original sin

Universal Atonement does not deny original sin. You are spreading an out-right falsehood in so claiming. You are not telling the truth.

Universal Atonement teaches this:
JESUS DIED FOR ALL.
That's it.
That's al.

NOT A WORD there about anything original, not anything there about sin.
NOT A WORD there about free will or works-righteousnes.

It embraces that Jesus died or all.

tantamount to saying Christ’s death on the cross didn’t save anyone.

It would be helpful if you would stop the falsehoods.

"JESUS DIED FOR ALL"
It does not say Jesus' death didn't save anyone.
It does not say Jesus' death saved anyone.
It does not say anything is "tantamount"

It embraces that Jesus died for all.

Four simple works that my four-year-old can read and understand.
Why can't you?

Universalists say that the atonement only makes salvation possible for those who choose to save themselves.

Another falsehood.

Universalists (a split off of radical Calvinism about three centuries ago) holds that obviously those radical, extremist, latter-day Calvinist were wrong in saying Jesus did not die for all (that flat out contradicts the Bible) BUT held they were right that faith doens't matter in personal justification, like you they believe that if Jesus died for all then all are saved, and since the Bible states He died for all.... and the radical Calvinists you echo suggested that faith is irrelevant ("If Jesus died for all then all are saved") thus all are saved. Which is why they called themselves Universalist.

The view of Universal Atonement (a moniker given by those radical, extreme Calvinists) holds that the Bible is correct (and not lying) when it so often states that Jesus died for all. It does not state, "All people are saved (cuz faith is a joke and entirely irrelevant to anything). It does not say "All people save themselves." It does not say, "Choose." It says Jesus died for all. When you claim something different, you are (hate to say it) lying.

Universal Atonement are bound to the idea of Free Will choice to bring about salvation.

Again, yet again, still another time.... Here is the view: JESUS DIED FOR ALL. Now, underline the words "free will" in that statement. Or show some honesty and admit you are not telling the truth.

 

[Josiah]

@1689Dave


As you and everyone knows, the view your friends, the radical, extremist, ladder-day Calvinists gave the moniker of "Universal Atonement" to, is this: Jesus died for all. Those 4 words. That's it, that's all.

You seem to not like that moniker. Blame those radical Calvinists you echo, they invented the monikers for the two opposing views.

As you have been told - MANY times, over many weeks, in numerous threads, the early Christians, the Church Council, the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church and more teach that Jesus died for all BUT they never use the Calvinist invented moniker in their statements, declarations or Confessions. I stated the Catholic embrace of this in CCC 605 and you noted it just states the view, not the Calvinist name for it. And I quoted the Lutheran Confessions and you read the view but didn't see the Calvinist moniker they invented for it. The doctrine is this: Jesus died for all.

Which is why this topic isn't about the monikers the radical, extremist, latter-day Calvinists you echo gave to the two views, IT'S BEEN ABOUT THE TWO VIEWS. Perhaps you've just not been paying any attention.


Here, AGAIN, yet again, still another time, these are the two views. Call them "Apple" and "Cherry" if you like, Calvinists can invent any monikers they want, it doesn't change the views.

Here are the two competing views:


1. Jesus died for all people.

Here are the Scriptures that state this view. The view echos them, verbatim.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

and many more just like the above.

+ This view does NOT hold that all individuals have personal justification since that requires a second aspect, the divine gift of faith. BOTH the CROSS and FAITH are 100% the work and gift of God and together they bring justification (narrow sense) to the individual.

+ The Catholic Church, Lutheran Church and Anglican churches have condemned Pelagianism and all its forms (it's a tad fuzzy in the EOC, lol) So this teaching does not hold that we save ourselves, it does not denounce original sin, it does not repudiate faith. It states this: Jesus died for all. It echos those words from the Bible. It doesn't explain anything, it doesn't deny anything, it affirms one point: Jesus died for all.

It is the view of the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, and nearly all other denominations and faith communities. It was declared doctine by a Church Council in the 9th Century.


2. No, Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few.

Here are the Scriptures that state this view:

Crickets.

+ There is a verse that says "Jesus died for the Elect" but none that say ONLY for the Elect. And there are verses that state that Jesus died for us (Christians) but none that state ONLY for us (indeed, see 1 John 2:2). And without the "only" the point is unsubstantiated. Apologists of this view must employ a silly logical fallacy, one illustrated by this: "Ford makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Or "Bob loves his wife, ergo he ONLY loves his wife and not his kids." Even my four year old son can see the absurdity of the logical fallacy radical, extremist Calvinists use as their apologetic for this invention. The whole apologetic has not one Scripture that states their point. It's based entirely on a logical fallacy.

+ And of course if this horrible invention is true, then no one can know if Jesus' death is for THEM (odds are, it's not). And no way to know if their trust in that death for THEM means anything at all since they can't know if it was for them (probably not).

Radical Calvinists invented this dogma in response to Arminianists (who embrace some forms of synergism and Pelagianism) and necessitates the opposition having those views. It doesn't work at all on people who aren't Arminianists. It's based on NOT ONE VERSE in Scripture (so much for Sola Scriptura) and on a fallacy that permits them to INSERT the word "only" into texts, the logical fallacy that is the entire basis of their apologetic is like this: "Ford makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Their entire apologetic rests on this logical fallacy. And the absence of any Scripture that states it.

We all know you have this remarkably, incredibly silly idea that questions are substantiation. And that you just employ a plethora of logical fallacies and heaven knows endless red-herrings, constantly trying to CHANGE the view of "Jesus died for all" into almost anything but that, I'm surprised you haven't yet claimed the doctrine is that the Moon is made of cream cheese (it would be as truthful as what you've been claiming), always changing the topic to things NOT being taught in this doctrine - and we know why, you can't defend your position and can't show the actual position we are presenting is wrong.


.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


As you and everyone knows, the view your friends, the radical, extremist, ladder-day Calvinists gave the moniker of "Universal Atonement" to, is this: Jesus died for all. Those 4 words. That's it, that's all.

You seem to not like that moniker. Blame those radical Calvinists you echo, they invented the monikers for the two opposing views.

As you have been told - MANY times, over many weeks, in numerous threads, the early Christians, the Church Council, the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church and more teach that Jesus died for all BUT they never use the Calvinist invented moniker in their statements, declarations or Confessions. I stated the Catholic embrace of this in CCC 605 and you noted it just states the view, not the Calvinist name for it. And I quoted the Lutheran Confessions and you read the view but didn't see the Calvinist moniker they invented for it. The doctrine is this: Jesus died for all.

Which is why this topic isn't about the monikers the radical, extremist, latter-day Calvinists you echo gave to the two views, IT'S BEEN ABOUT THE TWO VIEWS. Perhaps you've just not been paying any attention.


Here, AGAIN, yet again, still another time, these are the two views. Call them "Apple" and "Cherry" if you like, Calvinists can invent any monikers they want, it doesn't change the views.

Here are the two competing views:


1. Jesus died for all people.

Here are the Scriptures that state this view. The view echos them, verbatim.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

and many more just like the above.

+ This view does NOT hold that all individuals have personal justification since that requires a second aspect, the divine gift of faith. BOTH the CROSS and FAITH are 100% the work and gift of God and together they bring justification (narrow sense) to the individual.

+ The Catholic Church, Lutheran Church and Anglican churches have condemned Pelagianism and all its forms (it's a tad fuzzy in the EOC, lol) So this teaching does not hold that we save ourselves, it does not denounce original sin, it does not repudiate faith. It states this: Jesus died for all. It echos those words from the Bible. It doesn't explain anything, it doesn't deny anything, it affirms one point: Jesus died for all.

It is the view of the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, and nearly all other denominations and faith communities. It was declared doctine by a Church Council in the 9th Century.


2. No, Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few.

Here are the Scriptures that state this view:

Crickets.

+ There is a verse that says "Jesus died for the Elect" but none that say ONLY for the Elect. And there are verses that state that Jesus died for us (Christians) but none that state ONLY for us (indeed, see 1 John 2:2). And without the "only" the point is unsubstantiated. Apologists of this view must employ a silly logical fallacy, one illustrated by this: "Ford makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Or "Bob loves his wife, ergo he ONLY loves his wife and not his kids." Even my four year old son can see the absurdity of the logical fallacy radical, extremist Calvinists use as their apologetic for this invention. The whole apologetic has not one Scripture that states their point. It's based entirely on a logical fallacy.

+ And of course if this horrible invention is true, then no one can know if Jesus' death is for THEM (odds are, it's not). And no way to know if their trust in that death for THEM means anything at all since they can't know if it was for them (probably not).

Radical Calvinists invented this dogma in response to Arminianists (who embrace some forms of synergism and Pelagianism) and necessitates the opposition having those views. It doesn't work at all on people who aren't Arminianists. It's based on NOT ONE VERSE in Scripture (so much for Sola Scriptura) and on a fallacy that permits them to INSERT the word "only" into texts, the logical fallacy that is the entire basis of their apologetic is like this: "Ford makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Their entire apologetic rests on this logical fallacy. And the absence of any Scripture that states it.

We all know you have this remarkably, incredibly silly idea that questions are substantiation. And that you just employ a plethora of logical fallacies and heaven knows endless red-herrings, constantly trying to CHANGE the view of "Jesus died for all" into almost anything but that, I'm surprised you haven't yet claimed the doctrine is that the Moon is made of cream cheese (it would be as truthful as what you've been claiming), always changing the topic to things NOT being taught in this doctrine - and we know why, you can't defend your position and can't show the actual position we are presenting is wrong.


.

An atonement removes liability for punishment. Your atonement does not atone for any sin, or everyone would be saved.

 

[1689Dave]

Universal Atonement does not deny original sin. You are spreading an out-right falsehood in so claiming. You are not telling the truth.

Universal Atonement teaches this:
JESUS DIED FOR ALL.
That's it.
That's al.

NOT A WORD there about anything original, not anything there about sin.
NOT A WORD there about free will or works-righteousnes.

It embraces that Jesus died or all.





It would be helpful if you would stop the falsehoods.

"JESUS DIED FOR ALL"
It does not say Jesus' death didn't save anyone.
It does not say Jesus' death saved anyone.
It does not say anything is "tantamount"

It embraces that Jesus died for all.

Four simple works that my four-year-old can read and understand.
Why can't you?




Another falsehood.

Universalists (a split off of radical Calvinism about three centuries ago) holds that obviously those radical, extremist, latter-day Calvinist were wrong in saying Jesus did not die for all (that flat out contradicts the Bible) BUT held they were right that faith doens't matter in personal justification, like you they believe that if Jesus died for all then all are saved, and since the Bible states He died for all.... and the radical Calvinists you echo suggested that faith is irrelevant ("If Jesus died for all then all are saved") thus all are saved. Which is why they called themselves Universalist.

The view of Universal Atonement (a moniker given by those radical, extreme Calvinists) holds that the Bible is correct (and not lying) when it so often states that Jesus died for all. It does not state, "All people are saved (cuz faith is a joke and entirely irrelevant to anything). It does not say "All people save themselves." It does not say, "Choose." It says Jesus died for all. When you claim something different, you are (hate to say it) lying.






Again, yet again, still another time.... Here is the view: JESUS DIED FOR ALL. Now, underline the words "free will" in that statement. Or show some honesty and admit you are not telling the truth.

Jesus did not die for all if it says he died for many. To make it work, he died for ALL of the Many.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus did not die for all if it says he died for many. To make it work, he died for ALL of the Many.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


Your apologetic depends entirely as you keep proving on a logical fallacy - a really silly one no middle school student would use. "Ford makes Mustangs ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." "Many" and "all" are not contradictions, nor does "many" mean "not all." If I posted, "Men can vote in the USA" does not prove ergo women cannot. THINK. And stop denying what we know the Bible states.

You are continuing to prove...

+ You either have NO CLUE what the two positions are that you're discussing or more likely, you are knowingly lying.
+ The Bible flat-out, literally, verbatim STATES our view, it never states yours.
+ Your whole apologetic rests entirely on silly logical fallacies.
+ You don't read what is posted to you.



.

 

[1689Dave]

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


Your apologetic depends entirely as you keep proving on a logical fallacy - a really silly one no middle school student would use. "Ford makes Mustangs ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." "Many" and "all" are not contradictions, nor does "many" mean "not all." If I posted, "Men can vote in the USA" does not prove ergo women cannot. THINK. And stop denying what we know the Bible states.

You are continuing to prove...

+ You either have NO CLUE what the two positions are that you're discussing or more likely, you are knowingly lying.
+ The Bible flat-out, literally, verbatim STATES our view, it never states yours.
+ Your whole apologetic rests entirely on silly logical fallacies.
+ You don't read what is posted to you.



.

How about this? Many limits how many in the world Jesus died for. It never says all without references that say Many.

 

[Josiah]

How about this? Many limits how many in the world Jesus died for. It never says all without references that say Many.

@1689Dave

You allude to Hebrews 9:28. Here are the actual words, "Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many."

Here's what CALVIN said about that.

Click here:

Heb 9:24-28

Scroll down to verse 28. And see where CALVIN says that "many" means all. CALVIN was right about this, I agree with Calvin, it's those radical, extreme, latter-day guys you echo who disagree with Calvin (and Scripture).

Here's what CALVIN said about the Hebrew verse, "To bear, or, take away sins, is to free from guilt by his satisfaction those who have sinned. He says the sins of many, that is, of all, as in Romans 5:15. It is yet certain that all receive no benefit from the death of Christ; but this happens, because their unbelief prevents them." We are in complete agreement with CALVIN there, you of course are not.

Thanks to Origen for pointing this out....


Just a few of the Scriptures that state Jesus died for all:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


All the Scriptures that state that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, for some unknown few:

Crickets.




.