Jesus died for the sins of the world

[Josiah]

Yeah all them apply to the elect

Of course, no one debates that. The issue is: does the verse state ONLY the elect?


.

 

[Albion]

Brightfame52,

Which is it going to be---they apply "only to the Church."

OR

All of them "apply to the elect?"

 

[brightfame52]

Of course, no one debates that. The issue is: does the verse state ONLY the elect?


.

The word only doesnt have to be stated, its implied by the congruity of scripture truth. Paul specified who Christ died for Eph 5:25 and Jesus did as well Jn 10:11,15 so the foundation is firmly set on for whom Christ died. To go beyond the foundation is foolish assumption.

 

[Albion]

The word only doesnt have to be stated, its implied by the congruity of scripture truth.

Paul specified who Christ died for Eph 5:25 and Jesus did as well Jn 10:11,15 so the foundation is firmly set on for whom Christ died.

In other words, you assumed something when reading those verses. In this case, wrongly so.

 

[1689Dave]

If Jesus died for the sins of this world, as you say, why aren't all saved? Wouldn't that include the sin of unbelief too?

 

[brightfame52]

In other words, you assumed something when reading those verses. In this case, wrongly so.

I havent assumed anything, if you mean me, what I know is pretty clear cut stated as a specific fact, Christ died for His Church specifically Eph 5:25 and or His Sheep specifically stated Jn 10. Now for any to go beyond that, its assumption !

 

[Albion]

I havent assumed anything, if you mean me, what I know is pretty clear cut stated as a specific fact, Christ died for His Church specifically Eph 5:25 and or His Sheep specifically stated Jn 10. Now for any to go beyond that, its assumption !

If you had not merely assumed something, you would have stated your thinking without equivocation instead of using evasive wording like "(It) doesn't have to be stated," "its [sic] implied," and "the foundation is firmly set."

 

[brightfame52]

If Jesus died for the sins of this world, as you say, why aren't all saved? Wouldn't that include the sin of unbelief too?

Yes He died for the sin of unbelief or else how could God have mercy on it ? The elect remnant God shut them up in unbelief in order to show them mercy Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Paul being part of that remnant, God had mercy on him in his unbelief 1 Tim 1:13

; 13 who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

He obtained mercy because Christ had satisfied Gods law and Justice for his unbelief and other sins.

 

[brightfame52]

If you had not merely assumed something, you would have stated your thinking without equivocation instead of using evasive wording like "(It) doesn't have to be stated," "its [sic] implied," and "the foundation is firmly set."

I,ve been posting.

 

[Josiah]

If Jesus died for the sins of this world, as you say, why aren't all saved?

AGAIN, still another time....

The Bible, Christianity and me all reject your repudiation of faith, your view that faith is moot, irrelevant and has nothing to do with salvation.

The Gospel is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE - Soli Deo Gloria. Since you eliminate the faith part of the Gospel, yes to you, all that matters is the Cross. You seem to believe that John 3:16 states, "For God so loved some unknown few people (probably not you) that He gave His only begotten son to some unknown few people (odds are, not you) that regardless of what one believes and even if he repudiates Christ, he will have eternal life because faith don't matter for nothin."



Now, back to the subject, which is not faith but whether Christ died for all people or that He did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.
The issue here is this: Is the Bible correct when it says that Jesus died for all people and for the sins of all people OR are you correct when you claim that the Bible states that that's wrong and Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

Let's see:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Now, you've had hundreds of opportunities to quote the verses that say all the above are wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all people, for all sins... but rather ONLY for some unknown few. And you've offered NONE so stating. And we all know why.



.

 

[1689Dave]

AGAIN, still another time....

The Bible, Christianity and me all reject your repudiation of faith, your view that faith is moot, irrelevant and has nothing to do with salvation.

The Gospel is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE - Soli Deo Gloria. Since you eliminate the faith part of the Gospel, yes to you, all that matters is the Cross. You seem to believe that John 3:16 states, "For God so loved some unknown few people (probably not you) that He gave His only begotten son to some unknown few people (odds are, not you) that regardless of what one believes and even if he repudiates Christ, he will have eternal life because faith don't matter for nothin."



Now, back to the subject, which is not faith but whether Christ died for all people or that He did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.
The issue here is this: Is the Bible correct when it says that Jesus died for all people and for the sins of all people OR are you correct when you claim that the Bible states that that's wrong and Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

Let's see:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Now, you've had hundreds of opportunities to quote the verses that say all the above are wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all people, for all sins... but rather ONLY for some unknown few. And you've offered NONE so stating. And we all know why.



.

How can Jesus pay for a person's sin and he not be saved? Are you saying, God, is not above board on this?

 

[Josiah]

How can Jesus pay for a person's sin and he not be saved?

@1689Dave


Dave,

There are MANY frustrating aspects to our conversations making it stunning that anyone here is still trying to discuss anything with you... But among them are the logical fallacies and diversions you employ. Although I'm 99% sure I'm wasting my (valuable) time, let me try to point out some of these.

1. In most of your threads, there is the almost constant use of red herrings. This is when ANOTHER issue is interjected into the debate. Some use this just for division, but often it's used with the premise that if one is right on a different point, ergo they're right on the issue at hand. You argue that if "free will" is wrong or perhaps if predestination is right then Limited Atonement is right. It's a logical fallacy. And frustrating. If ANY progress is even possible in our discussion, you need to stick to the issue - and not the constant changing of subjects.

2. I think your whole premise falls on a false idea that some radical, extreme Calvinists tend to approach: That the ONLY factor in personal justification is whether Christ died for you or not (and odds are, He didn't). It seems to be an underlying assumption the worst of them seem to hold (BTW, it's a false view that gave birth to Universalism, that movement is an off-shoot of radical Calvinism). This is very unbiblical and requires wholly evading ALL those verses that speak of the role of faith. The justification of a person rests on TWO things: The Cross and faith. It's not either/or, it's both/and. And YES, the first can exist for a person without the second of a person.

• I put myself through a LOT of years of college, my parents did not pay any tuition or college fees (they did help with housing and transportation). I took out no loans. I did this in large part with financial aid. In one case, a financial officer told me that there are MILLIONS of dollars in aid out there every year that never gets used; it's THERE but never gets applied to an individual, THERE for the student but the student doesn't benefit. THERE but doesn't benefit the student. It's not used NOT because it's not there for them but never applied/apprehended/relied upon.
• The tax attorney that works with my company (and also with me personally) tells me there are MANY deductions, etc. available from the Government that many never use. Lots of deductions exist that aren't used. They are THERE but individual companies or individuals don't benefit from; THERE for them but not benefiting them. The "problem" is not on the Government's end but on the company's or individual's.
• Because of Covid, there are a LOT of programs by the Federal Government, the State, the County and the City meant to help businesses. A plethora of them, all THERE. Billions of dollars of them. I know that MANY of them have gone mostly untapped (or at least often so). The company I work for hired a company just to find and apply for these (they get 10% of whatever they find for us). So far, we're just over $250,000 in "free" money they've found so far (with promises MUCH more is coming) - none of which we even knew was available for us, none of which we earned. It's THERE but it doesn't benefit you if you never apply it to yourself.
• Friend, you are making an absurd and fallacious apologetic to assume that just because something isn't yours ergo it's not available to you, not THERE, not actual or real. It's an illogical and quite obviously wrong assumption ... and much of your apologetic depends entirely on it.

Friend, your fundamental argument that faith doesn't apply to personal justification is clearly unbiblical (but necessary to your apologetic). It's not EITHER the Cross OR faith, it's not either/or, it's both/and.

And you make yet another fallacious and unbiblical assertion that if faith is involved, ergo free will, Pelagianism, Arminianism and personal works are involved. I have heard this repeatedly from radical Calvinists but it's not true. In fact, most who hold to Universal Atonement are strong monergist who reject any form of synergism or Pelagianism (simply a historic fact). Faith need not be a creation of the dead, unregenerate, atheistic, totally deprived unsaved person.... indeed, it can be the work of God, the Gift of God (as indeed most who hold to Universal Atonement believe). It is absurd to insist that if faith is present, it can only be the work of the receiver - and you keep coming back to this fallacy - over and over and over and over again. It's obviously wrong.

You seem to have this very weird idea that questions are substantiation. Nope. Answers are. Instead of asking the same question - over and over - you need to give the substantiation for the answer you give. We all know all those who can speak can ask questions; it proves only that.


.

 

[1689Dave]

DAVE,

There are MANY frustrating aspects to our conversations making it stunning that anyone here is still trying to discuss with you... But among them are the logical fallacies and diversions you employ. Although I'm 99% sure I'm wasting my (valuable) time, let me try to point out some of these.

1. In most of your threads, there is the almost constant use of red herrings. This is when ANOTHER issue is interjected into the debate. Some use this just for division, but often it's used with the premise that if one is right on a different point, ergo they're right on the issue at hand. You argue that if "free will" is wrong or perhaps if predestination is right then Limited Atonement is right. It's a logical fallacy. And frustrating. If ANY progress is even possible in our discussion, you need to stick to the issue - and not the constant changing of subjects.

2. I think your whole premise falls on a false idea that some radical, extreme Calvinists tend to approach: That the ONLY factor in personal justification is whether Christ died for you or not (and odds are, He didn't). It seems to be an underlying assumption the worst of them seem to hold (BTW, it's a false view that gave birth to Universalism, that movement is an off-shoot of radical Calvinism). This is very unbiblical and requires wholly evading ALL those verses that speak of the role of faith. The justification of a person rests on TWO things: The Cross and faith. It's not either/or, it's both/and. And YES, the first can exist for a person without the second of a person.

• I put myself through a LOT of years of college, my parents did not pay any tuition or college fees (they did help with housing and transportation). I took out no loans. I did this in large part with financial aid - all secured through the financial aid departments of the schools I attended. In one case, an officer told me that there are MILLIONS of dollars in aid out there every year that never gets used; it's THERE but never gets applied, THERE for the student but the student doesn't benefit. THERE but doesn't benefit the student. It's not used NOT because it's not there for them but never applied/apprehended/relied upon.
• The tax attorney that works with my company (and also with me personally) tells me there are MANY deductions, etc. available from the Government that many never use. Lots of deductions exist that aren't used. They are THERE but individual companies or individuals don't benefit from; THERE for them but not benefiting them. The "problem" is not on the Government's end but on the company's or individual's.
• Because of Covid, there are a LOT of programs by the Federal Government, the State, the County and the City meant to help businesses. A plethora of them, all THERE. Billions of dollars of them. I know that MANY of them have gone mostly untapped (or at least often so). The company I work for hired a company just to find and apply for these (they get 10% of whatever they find for us). So far, we're just over $250,000 in "free" money they've found so far (with promises MUCH more is coming) - none of which we even knew was available for us. It's THERE but it doesn't benefit you if you never apply it to yourself.
• Friend, you are making an absurd and fallacious apologetic to assume that just because something isn't yours ergo it's not available to you, not THERE, not real. It's an illogical and quite obviously wrong assumption ... and much of your apologetic depends entirely on it.

Friend, your fundamental argument that faith doesn't apply to personal justification is clearly unbiblical (but necessary to your apologetic). It's not EITHER the Cross OR faith, it's not either/or, it's both/and.

And you make yet another fallacious and unbiblical assertion that if faith is involved, ergo free will, Pelagianism, Arminianism and personal works are involved. I have heard this repeatedly from radical Calvinists but it's not true. In fact, most who hold to Universal Atonement are strong monergist who reject any form of synergism or Pelagianism (simply a historic fact). Faith need not be a creation of the dead, unregenerate, atheistic, totally deprived unsaved person.... indeed, it can be the work of God, the Gift of God (as indeed most who hold to Universal Atonement believe). It is absurd to insist that if faith is present, it can only be the work of the receiver - and you keep coming back to this fallacy - over and over and over and over again. It's obviously wrong.

You seem to have this very weird idea that questions are substantiation. Nope. Answers are. Instead of asking the same question - over and over - you need to give the substantiation for the answer you give. Questions are diversions, evasions.


.

I must have an answer to John 10 before I entangle my self in your longer posts.

 

[brightfame52]

lamb

We can't go out and spread the Gospel if it weren't objectively already true...that Jesus died for all. God wants us to go out and spread the good news so we CAN safely say that He died for YOU!

The Apostles in their evangelistic campaign in the Book of Acts never stated to anyone that Christ died for you. They presented the facts about Christs death and resurrection, but never said to anyone God loves you and Christ died for you. Read the 1st sermon in Acts 2 and see if you find that, and then the rest of the of the sermons.

Plus Jesus told them to preach repentance and remission of sins in His Name ! Lk 24 and that's what Peter did in Acts 5:31. The Gospel can be preached and was preached in all nations without telling people Christ died for you.

 

[Josiah]

The Apostles in their evangelistic campaign in the Book of Acts never stated to anyone that Christ died for you. They presented the facts about Christs death and resurrection, but never said to anyone God loves you and Christ died for you. Read the 1st sermon in Acts 2 and see if you find that, and then the rest of the of the sermons.

@brightfame52
@Lamb

They also never stated, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY for an unknown few - and odds are, not for you. So repent if you want - but odds are there is no forgiveness for you since no one knows Christ died for you, if there is forgiveness for you, you certainly don't know."


Did the Apostle Paul preach that Jesus died for all?

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.

And nope, he never said, "NO, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few (and that probably doesn't include you)." Nope.


Did the Apostle John?

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son.

The Gospel can be preached and was preached in all nations without telling people Christ died for you.

Well, only if you know the names of those to whom it applies. You'd need to see the list of names of those for whom Christ died, for whom there is forgiveness. Otherwise, you'd be lying. If Jesus did NOT die for all but only for some unknown few, then it would be a profound dishonesty - a very cruel one - to insist "There is forgiveness and heaven for you" when in reality, it's probably not. Would you go out shouting, "You won the 2 billion dollar lottery" if you had no clue if they did or did not? What "Gospel" can you preach to all.... when the Gospel is not for all but only for a few, and you don't know which few?




.

 

[1689Dave]

They also never states, "Jesus did not die for all people but ONLY for an unknown few - and odds are, not for you. So repent if you want - but odds are there is no forgiveness for you since who knows if Christ died for you, if there is forgiveness for you, you certainly don't."


Did the Apostle Paul preach that Jesus died for all?

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Did the Apostle John?

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son.








Well, only if you know the names of those to whom it applies. You'd need to see the list of names of those for whom Christ died, for whom there is forgiveness. Otherwise, you'd be lying. If Jesus did NOT die for all but only for some unknown few, then it would be a profound dishonesty - a very cruel one - to insist "There is forgiveness and heaven for you" when in reality, it's probably not. Would you go out shouting, "You won the 2 billion dollar lottery" if you had no clue if they did or did not? What "Gospel" can you preach to all.... when the Gospel is not for all but only for a few, and you don't have the list of names?




.

Again, if Jesus died for the sins of the world, meaning every person as you think, why do most perish?

 

[Albion]

Again, if Jesus died for the sins of the world, meaning every person as you think, why do most perish?

They lack saving Faith.

 

[1689Dave]

They lack saving Faith.

Didn't Jesus pay for that sin too?

 

[Josiah]

Didn't Jesus pay for that sin too?

and if they don't apply it, it does them no good.

Your rejection of the role of faith simply makes you wrong, it does not mean that ergo all the following Scriptures are wrong:


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Oh, and again, yet again, questions aren't substantiation. For anything. You know that. We all do.

.

 

[Albion]

Didn't Jesus pay for that sin too?

Whether or not disbelief is a sin, such persons still don't have saving faith; and that answers your question about why they are not heaven-bound.

See Romans 3:10-20; John 11:25; and Ephesians 1:7