Jesus died for the sins of the world

[1689Dave]

I reject your laughable (and very unchristian) view that Jesus did not die for people but for planets.






You have no clue what I WANT to say, but you do know what I've said. And never - not once, not since I was 16 - have I ever said that someone chooses to believe. Nor is that the topic of this thread. Universal Atonement is that "JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE." It echos, verbatim, what so many Scriptures obviously and undeniably state. Read that: 'JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE." Read it outloud, read the words. Perhaps more than once. Then underline the words there: "who chooses to believe."




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Kosmos does not mean people in this passage. God hates sinners.

 

[Lamb]

Pelagius taught that Jesus saved no one. Universal atonement teaches exactly the same or all would be saved. Pelagius taught that people save themselves through obedience. Universal atonement teaches the same. Therefore Universal atonement is Pelagianism. Luther proved Free Will is a lie.

Nope. You still haven't proven WHY you claim Universal Atonement teaches the above.

 

[Josiah]

Nope. You still haven't proven WHY you claim Universal Atonement teaches the above.

He knows it doesn't.

Now it seems he is insisting that Jesus did not die for people at all, not for any of them, but instead for planets.

This gets ever more crazy.


He knows (we all do) this is what Scripture actually states (and could it be more clear)?

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.




And of course, as Dave has proven, there is not one verse that states...

... Jesus died not for people but for planets.
... Jesus did NOT die for all, for everyone, for all people, that's NOT true, that's a lie, He ONLY died for some unknown FEW.
.... All these verses state that everyone saves themselves by what they do (rather than what Jesus did)

Clearly, if we actually READ the verses and BELIEVE rather than repudiate and denounce them, we know... Jesus died for all, for all people, for everyone. Because that's EXACTLY, VERBATIM what the Bible says. Over and over again. And never the contrary.


Universal Atonement: Jesus died for all.
Limited Atonement: No! Jesus died for ONLY some unknown FEW.



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[1689Dave]

Nope. You still haven't proven WHY you claim Universal Atonement teaches the above.

UA does not save a single person or all would be saved.

 

[Josiah]

1689Dave said:


If He died for all as you say, why aren't they saved?

@1689Dave


Because, like Universalist, you are just dismissing faith.
Extreme Calvinists (just like the Universalists that split off from them) think all that matters is the Cross, faith is irrelevant.
Like Universalists (who split off from radical Calvinism) you think that if Jesus died for someone, they are save (regardless of faith).
You both make the same mistake. Dismissing faith.


"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son (the Incarnation, the Cross) that whosoever believes in Him will not parish but have everlasting life." Ever read that verse, including the words "believe in him?" Radical Calvinists (and their off-spring, the Universalists) simply delete the "whosoever believes" part. YES, if faith is irrelevant and unnecessary, then your question makes sense because then an impliation of Universal Atonement would be that all are saved. But NONE that embrace Universal Atonement dismiss faith, none of them have any reason to delete part of John 3:16. As stated MANY times to you, Universal Atonement teaches that Jesus died for all (as the Bible so often, so clearly, verbatim says), it does not teach that ergo all are saved (Scripture actually gives examples, stating Jesus died for someone who was not saved).

Faith matters, my friend. It is not irrelevant. The Lutheran view is SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA. Radical Calvinists simply delete the faith part, as as their children, the universalists, do. But Scripture is equally clear on that: faith matters, there is no salvation without faith in Christ.

Now, please save us from the absurd and you know wrong accusation that if we agree with Scripture that faith is essential, ergo we disagree with Scripture that faith is the work of God, the gift of God. We aren't the ones insisting Scripture is wrong and MUST "mean" the exact opposite of what it says. No, that's your position.


Universal Atonement is true because that exactly echos what the Bible so often verbatim states.
Faith matters because that exactly echos what the Bible states.
Faith is the gift, the work of God because that exactly echos what the Bible states.


Your claim that Jesus died for planets, not people is absurd.
Your claim that all those verses are wrong and that Jesus did not die for all but only for a few is baseless and horrible.
Your claim that faith is irrelevant (a view you share with universalist) is just wrong.
Your claim that if faith exists, it cannot be given by God but must be given to self by self is heresy.


Your horrible, terrifying embrace of radical, extreme Calvinism is clearly unbiblical. I stand with Scripture. And 2000 years of Christian faith.




.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


Because, like Universalist, you are just dismissing faith.
Extreme Calvinists (just like the Universalists that split off from them) think all that matters is the Cross, faith is irrelevant.
Like Universalists (who split off from radical Calvinism) you think that if Jesus died for someone, they are save (regardless of faith).
You both make the same mistake. Dismissing faith.


"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son (the Incarnation, the Cross) that whosoever believes in Him will not parish but have everlasting life." Ever read that verse, including the words "believe in him?" Radical Calvinists (and their off-spring, the Universalists) simply delete the "whosoever believes" part. YES, if faith is irrelevant and unnecessary, then your question makes sense because then an impliation of Universal Atonement would be that all are saved. But NONE that embrace Universal Atonement dismiss faith, none of them have any reason to delete part of John 3:16. As stated MANY times to you, Universal Atonement teaches that Jesus died for all (as the Bible so often, so clearly, verbatim says), it does not teach that ergo all are saved (Scripture actually gives examples, stating Jesus died for someone who was not saved).

Faith matters, my friend. It is not irrelevant. The Lutheran view is SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA. Radical Calvinists simply delete the faith part, as as their children, the universalists, do. But Scripture is equally clear on that: faith matters, there is no salvation without faith in Christ.

Now, please save us from the absurd and you know wrong accusation that if we agree with Scripture that faith is essential, ergo we disagree with Scripture that faith is the work of God, the gift of God. We aren't the ones insisting Scripture is wrong and MUST "mean" the exact opposite of what it says. No, that's your position.


Universal Atonement is true because that exactly echos what the Bible so often verbatim states.
Faith matters because that exactly echos what the Bible states.
Faith is the gift, the work of God because that exactly echos what the Bible states.


Your claim that Jesus died for planets, not people is absurd.
Your claim that all those verses are wrong and that Jesus did not die for all but only for a few is baseless and horrible.
Your claim that faith is irrelevant (a view you share with universalist) is just wrong.
Your claim that if faith exists, it cannot be given by God but must be given to self by self is heresy.


Your horrible, terrifying embrace of radical, extreme Calvinism is clearly unbiblical. I stand with Scripture. And 2000 years of Christian faith.




.

Why don't you quote the Limited Atonement verses and try to refute them? Is it because you cannot see them in scripture?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I recently got SXM radio and was listening to Family Talk (a Christian station). I used to understand Calvanism as sound theology but never considered myself one, but this host had me thinking. He mentioned Calvinist and refuted the claim that Jesus only died for the sins of the elect.
Jesus in fact died for everyone's sin HOWEVER any individual can choose to reject His atonement if they wish and in doing so remain condemned to die the second death.
God wills that all be saved.
How then can we harmonize free will with the will of God?
I don't believe works save, I believe works are evidence of faith and that these works are charity (God being the sole witness to them).
Fruits of the Spirit or gifts of the Spirit have nothing to do with works, they are God given attributes for his elected servants.
Thoughts?

Would it trouble one's theology to leave intact in the scriptures both the idea of Christ taking away the sin of the world and the idea that one must repent and believe the gospel in order to be forgiven and made fit to enter God's presence?

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world because, He died specifically for them who shall inherit the world, the seed of Abraham. Rom 4:13

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

So Christ took on the seed of Abraham to make atonement for their sins specifically, the heirs Heb 2:14-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

This seed has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, has only to do with them Chosen in Christ, belonging to Him, hence consituting them the seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The world is theirs, because they belong to Christ 1 Cor 3:21-23

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world[kosmos], or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

 

[1689Dave]

Nope. You still haven't proven WHY you claim Universal Atonement teaches the above.

Pelagius claimed that people save themselves. That Christ saved no one. This is no different than Universal Atonement else all would be saved. Paul said: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9 (KJV 1900)

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900)


Pelagius also taught people save themselves through obedience. This is no different from Universal Atonement.


Also, consider Jesus's words about Limited Atonement:

John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

So, the reason those Pharisees did not believe, is because he did not die for them.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world

Just as the Bible so often, so clearly, so undeniably states.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Not all people benefit from this since not all have faith that apprehends/applies this to them but yes, the Bible is correct, the Bible is not lying when it declares that Jesus died for all people.




.

 

[1689Dave]

Just as the Bible so often, so clearly, so undeniably states.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Not all people benefit from this since not all have faith that apprehends/applies this to them but yes, the Bible is correct, the Bible is not lying when it declares that Jesus died for all people.




.

Did you ever think about the world where Jesus died for everyone and all are to be saved? Possibly he is speaking of the New World in the new heavens and earth. It's obvious this world is not saved, making Jesus (God) a failure.

 

[Josiah]

Pelagius claimed that people save themselves. That Christ saved no one. This is no different than Universal Atonement else all would be saved.

Your (all too common Calvinist) error is that you discount faith, holding that faith has no role or function in justification (narrow). Like the Universalists that split off from Calvinism, you proclaim that if Christ died for all then all are saved - regardless of the presence or absence of faith. You change John 3:16 so that it states, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten son to some unknown few so that all of them will never perish but have everlasting life whether they believe or not." But read the verse, my brother. Try actually reading the words.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

Correct. You have not one verse that remotely states that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

Your (frankly silly and completely illogical) point is that if Jesus died for the elect that proves he ONLY died for them. If I wrote that men can vote in the US does that prove that women cannot? How absurd. If I said that a Subaru Forester is a SUV does that prove that a Toyota Rav4 is not? IF I posted that 1689Dave is a poster at Christianity Haven does that prove that Lamb is not? Think, my brother.

Your position rests entirely on NOT and ONLY. We are waiting for verses that state, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few." You've not quoted that in the hundreds of posts you've made on this topic. And you've admitted you are using "logic" and "history" INSTEAD OF SCRIPTURE and we all know why (and we all know you've stated no logic or history at all).


Here's what the Bible states. That is IS Universal Atonement:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.




.

 

[1689Dave]

Your (all too common Calvinist) error is that you discount faith, holding that faith has no role or function in justification (narrow). Like the Universalists that split off from Calvinism, you proclaim that if Christ died for all then all are saved - regardless of the presence or absence of faith. You change John 3:16 so that it states, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten son to some unknown few so that all of them will never perish but have everlasting life whether they believe or not." But read the verse, my brother. Try actually reading the words.






Correct. You have not one verse that remotely states that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

Your (frankly silly and completely illogical) point is that if Jesus died for the elect that proves he ONLY died for them. If I wrote that men can vote in the US does that prove that women cannot? How absurd. If I said that a Subaru Forester is a SUV does that prove that a Toyota Rav4 is not? IF I posted that 1689Dave is a poster at Christianity Haven does that prove that Lamb is not? Think, my brother.

Your position rests entirely on NOT and ONLY. We are waiting for verses that state, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few." You've not quoted that in the hundreds of posts you've made on this topic. And you've admitted you are using "logic" and "history" INSTEAD OF SCRIPTURE and we all know why (and we all know you've stated no logic or history at all).


Here's what the Bible states. That is IS Universal Atonement:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.




.

Have you ever studied Pelagius and Augustine in their debate about salvation? Luther, Calvin, and the host of reformers were Augustinians. That's where Luther stood against free will in his book, the Bondage of the Will. It's one of the best books I've ever owned besides the Bible.

 

[Josiah]

Have you ever studied Pelagius and Augustine in their debate about salvation? Luther, Calvin, and the host of reformers were Augustinians. That's where Luther stood against free will in his book, the Bondage of the Will. It's one of the best books I've ever owned besides the Bible.

Red Herring.

This thread is not about free will. No one here supports that. Try to stay on topic.

It is simple: Is the Bible correct when it says that Jesus died for all people, for everyone OR are you correct when you claim that the Bible states that that's wrong and Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

Let's see:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


And here are the verses that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few (your view hinges entirely on the "NOT" and "ONLY"...

crickets

God hates sinners.

Romans 5:6-8 "at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

I reject your position that Jesus died only for non-sinners.
And I reject your position that John 3:16 means that Jesus died not for people but for planets. Yes, the word is "kosmos" and that can mean lights in the sky but IMO Jesus is speaking of people, not trillions of stars in the universe. Sorry, Jesus is not telling Nicodemus that He is dying for all stars and planets but for all people.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Red Herring.

This thread is not about free will. No one here supports that. Try to stay on topic. It is simple: Is the Bible correct when it says that Jesus died for all people, for everyone OR are you correct when you claim that the Bible states that that's wrong and Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

Let's see:

2 Peter 2:1 (KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

How can your interpretation be true if Jesus told some Pharisees he did not die for them? Besides, Peter is comparing the false teachers with wicked Israel whom God bought out of Egypt. The Greek word for bought means "in the marketplace" except for a few places. Why not go with the context and provide that definition in your presentation?

 

[brightfame52]

Red Herring.

This thread is not about free will. No one here supports that. Try to stay on topic.

It is simple: Is the Bible correct when it says that Jesus died for all people, for everyone OR are you correct when you claim that the Bible states that that's wrong and Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

Let's see:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


And here are the verses that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few (your view hinges entirely on the "NOT" and "ONLY"...

crickets





Romans 5:6-8 "at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

I reject your position that Jesus died only for non-sinners.
And I reject your position that John 3:16 means that Jesus died not for people but for planets. Yes, the word is "kosmos" and that can mean lights in the sky but IMO Jesus is speaking of people, not trillions of stars in the universe. Sorry, Jesus is not telling Nicodemus that He is dying for all stars and planets but for all people.



.

All them verses apply only to the Church, who Christ specifically, and exclusively loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25-26



25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

The 2 Pet 2:1 scripture never specified they were bought with the Blood of Christ, and I doubt that is what it means. The sinners Christ bought and redeemed, He redeemed them from #1 all iniquity Titus 2:14


Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

#2 He redeemed them from a vain manner of life 1 Pet 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

#3 He successfully redeemed them unto God Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

#4 He redeemed them from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Now if anything, Those in 2 Pet 2:1 merely made a profession that they were redeemed, but eventually proved to be phoneys 2 Pet 2:20-22

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[Albion]

All them verses apply only to the Church, who Christ specifically, and exclusively loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25-26

That's obviously not correct to say.

 

[brightfame52]

That's obviously not correct to say.

So you just going to ignore all those scriptures, thats fine. And yes it is correct, all those verses you quoted pertained to Gods elect, and I answered the one which referred to 2 Pet 2:1

 

[Albion]

So you just going to ignore all those scriptures, thats fine. And yes it is correct, all those verses you quoted pertained to Gods elect, and I answered the one which referred to 2 Pet 2:1

All them verses apply only to the Church,

You mean all them thar verses in Josiah's post?
2 Peter 2:1
1 John 2:2
Titus 2:11
John 3:16
Hebrews 2:9
2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Not a single one of them applies "only to the Church." But no, I didn't ignore them.

 

[brightfame52]

You mean all them thar verses in Josiah's post?
2 Peter 2:1
1 John 2:2
Titus 2:11
John 3:16
Hebrews 2:9
2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Not a single one of them applies "only to the Church." But no, I didn't ignore them.

Yeah all them apply to the elect, and I explained2 Pet 2:1