Jesus died for the sins of the world

[brightfame52]

Yup. Did Jesus die for brown eyed people? Yes. Does that prove that ergo He didn't die for all people, especially when Scripture says over and over and over - verbatim, exactly - that He died for all? Now, if this verse said "He giveth his life ONLY for the sheep" you might have a (weak) point, but the absolutely essential point of Limited Atonement - ONLY - is missing.

Over and over and over, Scripture says He died for "ALL"... but there's nothing that limits that in Scripture, we can't find "no, actually He didn't die for all but only for some few." If I wrote, "18 year olds can vote" does that prove ergo only they can vote?" Especially if I specifically, verbatim - over and over and over - state that all 18 and over may vote? See the issue?

And of course, what does Jesus say about sheep? That He has other sheep also, sheep that also are to be brought in.

.

So that's who Jesus specifically said He died for. If you go beyond that, you go beyond what He specifically said. He died as the Shepherd of the Sheep, He rose again as the Shepherd of His Sheep Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

 

[brightfame52]

Easily, all the elect or all the Sheep.

The word all pas means:

1. collectively
   1. some of all types

You can disagree all you want, you just disagreeing with the Truth. Christ died for all His Sheep collectively Jn 10

 

[Josiah]

So that's who Jesus specifically said He died for.

Yes. But He didn't say the essential point for your opinion: that He died ONLY for "the sheep." Your position falls without that. If I said, "18 year-olds can vote" does that prove that 19 year olds cannot? If I said that Jesus died for males does that prove He did not for females? Especially if I specifically, verbatim, stated (many times) that those over 18 may vote, that Jesus died for all people?" I'm sure you get the point.

The Bible specifically, boldly, clearly, undeniably and VERBATIM states - over and over again - that Jesus died for ALL. ALL. If you are going to insist that's wrong, then you need verses that equally state, "No, ONLY for....."

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.

Now, where are the verses that state, "No, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few." Where is that? Without that, I'm going to believe that the Bible is right in what it so clearly states above.



.


.

 

[1689Dave]

I don't believe the will is free in regards to salvation. I believe I've addressed that and so did Luther.

Did you know Luther taught Limited Atonement? It is so.


Regarding Romans 9:20-21, Luther wrote:

As Universalists (Pelagians say) “God will have all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4), and he gave his Son for us men, and he created man for the sake of eternal life. And likewise: Everything is there for man’s sake and he is there for God’s sake in order that he may enjoy him, etc.

But this objection [to God’s sovereignty in salvation] and others like it can just as easily be refuted as the first one:

because all these sayings must be understood only with respect to the elect [emphasis in original], as the apostle says in 2 Timothy 2:10, “All for the elect.” Christ did not die for absolutely all, for he says: “This is my blood which is shed for you” (Luke 22:20) and “for many” (Mark 14:24)- he did not say: for all- “to the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). [Martin Luther, Lectures on Romans, translated and edited by Wilhelm Pauck (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1961), 252.]

 

[1689Dave]

They don't exist. There is no verse, not even one, that states, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some." You've not quoted the verse because it doesn't exist. If you had verses that teach Limited Atonement, you would have offered it but you didn't because you can't. In 500 years, no radical Calvinist has found even one verse that states, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some." Not one, much less "all."

I have quoted several (but far from all) that verbatim state, specifically, that Christ died for all. MANY verses. Verbatim. Specifically. Over and over. You just entirely dismissed and ignored them.






Luther did not teach limited atonement. Luther taught universal grace. Now, yes, there is one snippet from very, very early in his life where it SEEMS he is speaking for limited atonement. Radical Calvinists quote that. But the quote below if far, far more typical:

"[Christ] work is not against one sin only, but against all my sin; and not against my sin only, but against the whole world's sin. He comes to take away not sickness only, but death; and not my death only, but the whole world's death" [WA 37: 201, Sermon for first Sunday in Advent, 1533]. That's obviously a very bold, clear affirmation of Universal Atonement... and it's very typical.




What does Scripture state? That Jesus died for all OR that He did NOT die for all but rather ONLY for some unnamed few? Unlimited Atonement or Limited Atonement?

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


And the verses that state, "No, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for a few."

Crickets.



.

Did you know Luther taught Limited Atonement? It is so.


Regarding Romans 9:20-21, Luther wrote:

As Universalists (Pelagians say) “God will have all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4), and he gave his Son for us men, and he created man for the sake of eternal life. And likewise: Everything is there for man’s sake and he is there for God’s sake in order that he may enjoy him, etc.

But this objection [to God’s sovereignty in salvation] and others like it can just as easily be refuted as the first one:

because all these sayings must be understood only with respect to the elect [emphasis in original], as the apostle says in 2 Timothy 2:10, “All for the elect.” Christ did not die for absolutely all, for he says: “This is my blood which is shed for you” (Luke 22:20) and “for many” (Mark 14:24)- he did not say: for all- “to the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). [Martin Luther, Lectures on Romans, translated and edited by Wilhelm Pauck (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1961), 252.]

 

[1689Dave]

Uh, no. It isn't.

I haven't affirmed that. I never have approved of Pelagianism, nor supported the idea that people can save themselves, and certainly not by their own works.


By Faith, just as the Bible teaches.

Did you know Luther taught Limited Atonement? It is so.


Regarding Romans 9:20-21, Luther wrote:

As Universalists (Pelagians say) “God will have all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4), and he gave his Son for us men, and he created man for the sake of eternal life. And likewise: Everything is there for man’s sake and he is there for God’s sake in order that he may enjoy him, etc.

But this objection [to God’s sovereignty in salvation] and others like it can just as easily be refuted as the first one:

because all these sayings must be understood only with respect to the elect [emphasis in original], as the apostle says in 2 Timothy 2:10, “All for the elect.” Christ did not die for absolutely all, for he says: “This is my blood which is shed for you” (Luke 22:20) and “for many” (Mark 14:24)- he did not say: for all- “to the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). [Martin Luther, Lectures on Romans, translated and edited by Wilhelm Pauck (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1961), 252.]

 

[brightfame52]

Yes. But He didn't say the essential point for your opinion: that He died ONLY for "the sheep." Your position falls without that. If I said, "18 year-olds can vote" does that prove that 19 year olds cannot? If I said that Jesus died for males does that prove He did not for females? Especially if I specifically, verbatim, stated (many times) that those over 18 may vote, that Jesus died for all people?" I'm sure you get the point.

The Bible specifically, boldly, clearly, undeniably and VERBATIM states - over and over again - that Jesus died for ALL. ALL. If you are going to insist that's wrong, then you need verses that equally state, "No, ONLY for....."

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.

Now, where are the verses that state, "No, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few." Where is that? Without that, I'm going to believe that the Bible is right in what it so clearly states above.



.


.

Yet He was specific as to who He died for. Do you know what specific means ?

Specific:

having a special application, bearing, or reference; specifying, explicit, or definite:

 

[Albion]

.

 

[Lamb]

This ends in salvation by works. Try to prove it does not.

Josiah

Did you know Luther taught Limited Atonement? It is so.


Regarding Romans 9:20-21, Luther wrote:

As Universalists (Pelagians say) “God will have all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4), and he gave his Son for us men, and he created man for the sake of eternal life. And likewise: Everything is there for man’s sake and he is there for God’s sake in order that he may enjoy him, etc.

But this objection [to God’s sovereignty in salvation] and others like it can just as easily be refuted as the first one:

because all these sayings must be understood only with respect to the elect [emphasis in original], as the apostle says in 2 Timothy 2:10, “All for the elect.” Christ did not die for absolutely all, for he says: “This is my blood which is shed for you” (Luke 22:20) and “for many” (Mark 14:24)- he did not say: for all- “to the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). [Martin Luther, Lectures on Romans, translated and edited by Wilhelm Pauck (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1961), 252.]

I'd prefer to see the full lecture so I can know WHEN the lecture was written, and the full content. People tend to pull things out of content or from different times in Luther's life and say it proves their point. I can't find the full lecture online and this is some guy's translation that you've quoted from 1961.

Here is something I found:

Luther on Limited Atonement Revisited

There is a popular quote (as found on websites like these) from Luther in which he appears to advocate limited atonement: “God will have ...

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com

His later writings strongly imply a different conclusion on the extent of the atonement. Those people (particularly Reformed people) use the Romans commentary quote at the expense of Luther's entire written corpus, thus caricaturing his view. It is typically the only quote they use (probably because it's the only one they can find, and I unfortunately doubt they're actually looking).

So you see, you're doing the same thing a lot of people do, they try to say that LUTHER BELIEVED THIS and LUTHER BELIEVED THAT. And I ask, When did Luther believe that? Just like us, Luther went through a journey in his faith believing various things. But Luther did not die believing in a Limited Atonement.

Then there's this from that same link:
If this sermon does date from 1521-1522, one would need only to search through Luther's writings from this period to see if he comments on the extent of the atonement. In The Sermons of Martin Luther 1.1 p. 132 (Fourth Sunday in Advent), Luther states, "He alone must take upon himself not only your sins, but the sins of the world, and not some sins, but all the sins of the world, be they great or small, many or few." The Advent sermons are likewise said to be dated from the same time period.

 

[1689Dave]

Josiah


I'd prefer to see the full lecture so I can know WHEN the lecture was written, and the full content. People tend to pull things out of content or from different times in Luther's life and say it proves their point. I can't find the full lecture online and this is some guy's translation that you've quoted from 1961.

Here is something I found:

Luther on Limited Atonement Revisited

There is a popular quote (as found on websites like these) from Luther in which he appears to advocate limited atonement: “God will have ...

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com

His later writings strongly imply a different conclusion on the extent of the atonement. Those people (particularly Reformed people) use the Romans commentary quote at the expense of Luther's entire written corpus, thus caricaturing his view. It is typically the only quote they use (probably because it's the only one they can find, and I unfortunately doubt they're actually looking).

So you see, you're doing the same thing a lot of people do, they try to say that LUTHER BELIEVED THIS and LUTHER BELIEVED THAT. And I ask, When did Luther believe that? Just like us, Luther went through a journey in his faith believing various things. But Luther did not die believing in a Limited Atonement.

Then there's this from that same link:
If this sermon does date from 1521-1522, one would need only to search through Luther's writings from this period to see if he comments on the extent of the atonement. In The Sermons of Martin Luther 1.1 p. 132 (Fourth Sunday in Advent), Luther states, "He alone must take upon himself not only your sins, but the sins of the world, and not some sins, but all the sins of the world, be they great or small, many or few." The Advent sermons are likewise said to be dated from the same time period.

What if "sins of the world" harmonizes with His limited atonement? He would not contradict himself. You need to see the "world" as the Jews did. Not every person, but Jews and gentiles alike. Luther even explains this in my previous post.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ died for the sins of the world of the many Heb 9:27

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This corresponds with the accordance of scripture Isa 53:11,12


He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their[the many] iniquities.


Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Josiah]

@1689Dave

Frankly, it matters not what Luther MAY have meant very early in his life when he was still developing his theology. And it is clear that by 1533, he was clearly teaching Universal Atonement. Not that that matters much.

Clearly, obviously, Scripture teaches just as Christianity has: That Jesus died for all. You can't provide one verse that says Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some. Your entire doctrine has not one Scripture that teaches it, but MANY that flat out, boldly, verbatim contradict it.



Universal Atonement.

This view teaches that Jesus died for all. Not all are saved since not all have faith, but Jesus did die for all.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


"Limited Atonement" requires that these verses (and many more) are all false. They must be radically spinned so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what they verbatim state. I don't agree with that. And of course, those like you who support limited atonement have NO ONE VERSE that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some." Your whole radical, new, horrible doctrine rests entirely on "NOT" and "ONLY" which as everyone knows don't exist.

.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave

Frankly, it matters not what Luther MAY have meant very early in his life when he was still developing his theology. And it is clear that by 1533, he was clearly teaching Universal Atonement. Not that that matters much.

Clearly, obviously, Scripture teaches just as Christianity has: That Jesus died for all. You can't provide one verse that says Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some. Your entire doctrine has not one Scripture that teaches it, but MANY that flat out, boldly, verbatim contradict it.



Universal Atonement.

This view teaches that Jesus died for all. Not all are saved since not all have faith, but Jesus did die for all.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


"Limited Atonement" requires that these verses (and many more) are all false. They must be radically spinned so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what they verbatim state. I don't agree with that. And of course, those like you who support limited atonement have NO ONE VERSE that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some." Your whole radical, new, horrible doctrine rests entirely on "NOT" and "ONLY" which as everyone knows don't exist.

.

But he nailed it according to scripture. How did you turn against him so soon? You can make him say whatever you want by substituting your definitions for his. Besides Pelagianism, (free will - universal atonement) does not fit with his Favorite Book that he wrote against it. The Bondage of the Will.

 

[Josiah]

You can make him say whatever you want by substituting your definitions for his.

Just as you do when you insist that the MANY times Scripture says "all" you insist the Holy Spirit meant to say "NOT all" but forgot the "not."

Friend, I don't dispute (or even care) if Luther in his early days of finding his theology wrote something Calvinists think is Limited Atonement. What is clear and obvious is by that 1533, he is clearly and obviously teaching Universal Atonement. As if anyone cares.

Frankly, it matters not what Luther MAY have written very early in his life when he was still developing his theology. And it is clear that by 1533, he was clearly teaching Universal Atonement. I quoted what he wrote in 1533 and thereafter. Not that that matters much.

Clearly, obviously, Scripture teaches just as Christianity has: That Jesus died for all. You can't provide one verse that says Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some. Your entire doctrine has not one Scripture that teaches it, but MANY that flat out, boldly, undeniably, obviously,verbatim contradict it.



Universal Atonement.

This view teaches that Jesus died for all. Not all are saved since not all have faith, but Jesus did die for all.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


The new, horrible view of "Limited Atonement" requires that all these verses (and many more) are all false. They must be radically spinned so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what they verbatim state. All in favor of verses that don't exist. Those like you who support limited atonement have NO ONE VERSE that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some." Your whole radical, new, horrible doctrine rests entirely on "NOT" and "ONLY" which as everyone knows don't exist. It demands we depend on verses that don't exist and deny those that do.




.

 

[1689Dave]

Just as you do when you insist that the MANY times Scripture says "all" you insist the Holy Spirit meant to say "NOT all" but forgot the "not."

Friend, I don't dispute (or even care) if Luther in his early days of finding his theology wrote something Calvinists think is Limited Atonement. What is clear and obvious is by that 1533, he is clearly and obviously teaching Universal Atonement. As if anyone cares.

Frankly, it matters not what Luther MAY have written very early in his life when he was still developing his theology. And it is clear that by 1533, he was clearly teaching Universal Atonement. I quoted what he wrote in 1533 and thereafter. Not that that matters much.

Clearly, obviously, Scripture teaches just as Christianity has: That Jesus died for all. You can't provide one verse that says Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some. Your entire doctrine has not one Scripture that teaches it, but MANY that flat out, boldly, undeniably, obviously,verbatim contradict it.



Universal Atonement.

This view teaches that Jesus died for all. Not all are saved since not all have faith, but Jesus did die for all.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


The new, horrible view of "Limited Atonement" requires that all these verses (and many more) are all false. They must be radically spinned so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what they verbatim state. All in favor of verses that don't exist. Those like you who support limited atonement have NO ONE VERSE that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some." Your whole radical, new, horrible doctrine rests entirely on "NOT" and "ONLY" which as everyone knows don't exist. It demands we depend on verses that don't exist and deny those that do.




.

You are not balancing the scriptures. But cherry-pick the ones you like. Think of it this way. Luther broke the back of the Catholic Church proving that Free Will is a lie. Universal Atonement depends on Free Will in order to work. This means it is a form of Pelagianism. That is, Christ didn't save anyone. People must save themselves of their own free will.

This is not Christianity, but instead Pelagianism.

 

[Josiah]

You are not balancing the scriptures.

Calvinists have nothing to 'balance" God's Word with. Which is why you haven't presented any.

Over and over and over, repeatedly, clearly, boldly, VERBATIM, the Bible says all. As you've proven, never once does it say "no, not all.... no, only some." The Bible says all, never "only some." Your entire dogma hinges and depends on two words NOT all and ONLY some. So, go ahead, quote the verses that state that.

Universal Atonement depends on Free Will in order to work.

Well, God's free will. It has nothing whatsoever to do with our will. Universal Atonement simply echos exactly what God says: Jesus died for all. That is the Universal Atonement view, that's it, that's all, there's nothing more about it. Scripture isn't lying, Jesus died for all. Nothing there about our will (free or otherwise). It doesn't need us to work because we didn't die for Jesus, He died for us.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


The new Calvinist invention of "Limited Atonement" requires that all these verses (and many more) are all false. They must be radically spinned so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what they verbatim state. All in favor of verses that don't exist. Those like you who support limited atonement have NO ONE VERSE that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some." Your whole radical, new, horrible doctrine rests entirely on "NOT" and "ONLY" which as everyone knows don't exist. It demands we depend on verses that don't exist and deny those that do.


.

 

[1689Dave]

Calvinists have nothing to 'balance" God's Word with. Which is why you haven't presented any.

Over and over and over, repeatedly, clearly, boldly, VERBATIM, the Bible says all. As you've proven, never once does it say "no, not all.... no, only some." The Bible says all, never "only some." Your entire dogma hinges and depends on two words NOT all and ONLY some. So, go ahead, quote the verses that state that.





Well, God's free will. It has nothing whatsoever to do with our will. Universal Atonement simply echos exactly what God says: Jesus died for all. That is the Universal Atonement view, that's it, that's all, there's nothing more about it. Scripture isn't lying, Jesus died for all. Nothing there about our will (free or otherwise). It doesn't need us to work because we didn't die for Jesus, He died for us.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


The new Calvinist invention of "Limited Atonement" requires that all these verses (and many more) are all false. They must be radically spinned so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what they verbatim state. All in favor of verses that don't exist. Those like you who support limited atonement have NO ONE VERSE that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some." Your whole radical, new, horrible doctrine rests entirely on "NOT" and "ONLY" which as everyone knows don't exist. It demands we depend on verses that don't exist and deny those that do.


.

Luther was the first to teach Limited Atonement. Calvin was his student. And the Synod of Dort made it creedal. Here's what the trade-off is.

Universal Atonement is Pelagianism, condemned as heresy in 431 by the Council of Ephesus. Limited Atonement inferred by Augustine and approved by the Council of Ephesus in 431. Adapted by Luther and later Calvin to Reform the Church. Luther destroyed Free Will breaking the Catholic Church in two. The Protestants rejected Free Will, the Catholics built their system of works around it.

 

[Josiah]

Universal Atonement is Pelagianis

Absolutely absurd.

And I noticed how you couldn't respond to my last post with any verses to "balance" all the ones teaching Universal Atonement....


Pelagianism is that we essentially must earn our salvation by what WE DO, it rests on justification involving OUR works. As everyone knows, Universal Atonement has nothing - absolutely nothing - nothing whatsoever about what WE do (for anything, about anything). It echos EXACTLY what God repeatedly, clearly, undeniably, consistently states: Jesus died for all. That's the view. Now, where does it mention anyone else doing anything? for anything? About anything? It doesn't. You know that. We all know that. So your whole ABSURD counter is just silly and obviously nothing more than an attempt to avoid the obvious: You have not one verse to support Limited Atonement.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


The new Calvinist invention of "Limited Atonement" requires that all these verses (and many more) are all false. They must be radically spun so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what they verbatim state. All in favor of verses that don't exist. Those like you who support limited atonement have NO ONE VERSE that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some." Your whole radical, new, horrible doctrine rests entirely on "NOT" and "ONLY" which as everyone knows don't exist. It demands we depend on verses that don't exist and out-right deny those that do.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Absolutely absurd.

And I noticed how you couldn't respond to my last post with any verses to "balance" all the ones teaching Universal Atonement....


Pelagianism is that we essentially must earn our salvation by what WE DO, it rests on justification involving OUR works. As everyone knows, Universal Atonement has nothing - absolutely nothing - nothing whatsoever about what WE do (for anything, about anything). It echos EXACTLY what God repeatedly, clearly, undeniably, consistently states: Jesus died for all. That's the view. Now, where does it mention anyone else doing anything? for anything? About anything? It doesn't. You know that. We all know that. So your whole ABSURD counter is just silly and obviously nothing more than an attempt to avoid the obvious: You have not one verse to support Limited Atonement.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


The new Calvinist invention of "Limited Atonement" requires that all these verses (and many more) are all false. They must be radically spun so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what they verbatim state. All in favor of verses that don't exist. Those like you who support limited atonement have NO ONE VERSE that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some." Your whole radical, new, horrible doctrine rests entirely on "NOT" and "ONLY" which as everyone knows don't exist. It demands we depend on verses that don't exist and out-right deny those that do.



.

Well, what is it if not Pelagianism? They are identical in function.

 

[1689Dave]

Absolutely absurd.

And I noticed how you couldn't respond to my last post with any verses to "balance" all the ones teaching Universal Atonement....


Pelagianism is that we essentially must earn our salvation by what WE DO, it rests on justification involving OUR works. As everyone knows, Universal Atonement has nothing - absolutely nothing - nothing whatsoever about what WE do (for anything, about anything). It echos EXACTLY what God repeatedly, clearly, undeniably, consistently states: Jesus died for all. That's the view. Now, where does it mention anyone else doing anything? for anything? About anything? It doesn't. You know that. We all know that. So your whole ABSURD counter is just silly and obviously nothing more than an attempt to avoid the obvious: You have not one verse to support Limited Atonement.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


The new Calvinist invention of "Limited Atonement" requires that all these verses (and many more) are all false. They must be radically spun so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what they verbatim state. All in favor of verses that don't exist. Those like you who support limited atonement have NO ONE VERSE that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some." Your whole radical, new, horrible doctrine rests entirely on "NOT" and "ONLY" which as everyone knows don't exist. It demands we depend on verses that don't exist and out-right deny those that do.



.

How are you saved by Universal Atonement by doing nothing? This exposes the Pelagianism in your system of works. Let's see, you will probably say God gives faith to all making salvation possible so long as they do not resist it. Guess what, you still are your own savior in this unbiblical scheme. No different from Pelagianism in its outcome.