Disagreements between Catholics and Protestants

[Faith]

The 1932 Brief Statement seems pretty clear to support young earth, 6-day creation which does not allow for theistic evolution.

Yes, and Josiah has pointed out that this is not doctrine but it is the teaching and position of the church. I don’t see how that’s much different from doctrine, if at all.

 

[Faith]

Yes, and Josiah has pointed out that this is not doctrine but it is the teaching and position of the church. I don’t see how that’s much different from doctrine, if at all.

Is it? Because like I said before the words are synonyms.

 

[Lamb]

Is it? Because like I said before the words are synonyms.

The LCMS real doctrine is from the bible and the Confessions are a true exposition of what the bible says. The old earth/young earth argument is not in there from what I've read, so it's something that you're leaving the church for because you've heard from some LCMS that their beliefs are not in line with yours? That really makes no sense to me. Then you say you want to go to a non-denominational church instead, but their doctrine is not close to ours, so that really raises some red flags.

 

[Faith]

The LCMS real doctrine is from the bible and the Confessions are a true exposition of what the bible says. The old earth/young earth argument is not in there from what I've read, so it's something that you're leaving the church for because you've heard from some LCMS that their beliefs are not in line with yours? That really makes no sense to me. Then you say you want to go to a non-denominational church instead, but their doctrine is not close to ours, so that really raises some red flags.

What kind of red flags? I know at least one of the pastors at the ND church is an old earth creationist and as far as theistic evolution, he said that that isnt necessary for salvation. Jesus is.

 

[Albion]

Is it? Because like I said before the words are synonyms.

It looks like the issue is still in question, so here is something else that might be considered--

Lutheran Church passes resolution saying ‘God created the world in 6 natural days’

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod passed a resolution at their convention affirming belief that God created the earth in six natural days

www.christianpost.com

We noted earlier that the first statement dated from 1932 (although the author of that article wrote that it is still the church's stance). So, here we have an additional report that refers to how the LCMS in 2019 defined the issue of the six-day creation.

Take a look and see if it doesn't do a lot to clarify where the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod stands officially with respect to this particular teaching,

 

[Faith]

It looks like the issue is still in question, so here is something else that might be considered--

Lutheran Church passes resolution saying ‘God created the world in 6 natural days’

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod passed a resolution at their convention affirming belief that God created the earth in six natural days

www.christianpost.com

We noted earlier that the first statement dated from 1932 (although the author of that article wrote that it is still the church's stance). So, here we have an additional report that refers to how the LCMS in 2019 defined the issue of the six-day creation.

Take a look and see if it doesn't do a lot to clarify where the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod stands officially with respect to this particular teaching,

I know…..that’s why I’m considering leaving.

 

[Faith]

It looks like the issue is still in question, so here is something else that might be considered--

Lutheran Church passes resolution saying ‘God created the world in 6 natural days’

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod passed a resolution at their convention affirming belief that God created the earth in six natural days

www.christianpost.com

We noted earlier that the first statement dated from 1932 (although the author of that article wrote that it is still the church's stance). So, here we have an additional report that refers to how the LCMS in 2019 defined the issue of the six-day creation.

Take a look and see if it doesn't do a lot to clarify where the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod stands officially with respect to this particular teaching,

OTOH, God could’ve created in 6 natural days and the earth could still be old….but then again, that doesn’t address my belief in theistic evolution. Do you believe in theistic evolution?

 

[Josiah]

Ok, but it IS the church teaching. So, what’s the difference between teaching and dogma? According to Dictionary.com they are synonyms.

Well, it WAS 90 years ago.... the convention then approved it, by convention resolution. None since then has done anything with it. I don't think it reflects the common views today.

"TEACHING" is a viewpoint expressed. This can be by persons or by the denomination. A convention 90 years ago adopted The Brief Statement so 90 years ago, it was a denomination teaching. The LCMS now teaches that abortion is wrong (LOTS of resolutions to that effect, not just one about the Brief Statement), the last convention stated this. Again. My pastor taught us that readings from the Apocrypha should be added to the lectionary, but that's HIS teaching, the LCMS has said nothing at all to that topic. My pastor has the viewpoint that the Phillies will win the world series, but that's HIS teaching, not the LCMS's. A lot of the members of my LCMS parish teach that the Republican Party is better than the Democrat one. Teachings are not necessarily binding; you are not mandated to agree.

"DOGMA" is a required belief, what is held as true (whether it's taught or not, the point is it's HELD). Dogma may not apply equally to all (clergy may have more dogma than laity). For you, that's Luther's words in Luther's Small Catechism. You don't have to teach anything there, but when Confirmed and becoming an official member of an LCMS parish, you will be asked if you believe Luther's Catechism is true. DOGMA is not required to worship at a church but is to join the church. In the Catholic Church, De Fide Dogma is a view that not only must be held for membership but also for salvation, to deny such is to be a heretic. Sometimes in the Catholic Church, just dogma is treated that way - at least with clergy and religious.



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[Faith]

Well, it WAS 90 years ago.... the convention then approved it, by convention resolution. None since then has done anything with it. I don't think it reflects the common views today.

"TEACHING" is a viewpoint expressed. This can be by persons or by the denomination. A convention 90 years ago adopted The Brief Statement so 90 years ago, it was a denomination teaching. The LCMS now teaches that abortion is wrong (LOTS of resolutions to that effect, not just one about the Brief Statement), the last convention stated this. Again. My pastor taught us that readings from the Apocrypha should be added to the lectionary, but that's HIS teaching, the LCMS has said nothing at all to that topic. My pastor has the viewpoint that the Phillies will win the world series, but that's HIS teaching, not the LCMS's. A lot of the members of my LCMS parish teach that the Republican Party is better than the Democrat one. Teachings are not necessarily binding; you are not mandated to agree.

"DOGMA" is a required belief, what is held as true (whether it's taught or not, the point is it's HELD). Dogma may not apply equally to all (clergy may have more dogma than laity). For you, that's Luther's words in Luther's Small Catechism. You don't have to teach anything there, but when Confirmed and becoming an official member of an LCMS parish, you will be asked if you believe Luther's Catechism is true. DOGMA is not required to worship at a church but is to join the church. In the Catholic Church, De Fide Dogma is a view that not only must be held for membership but also for salvation, to deny such is to be a heretic. Sometimes in the Catholic Church, just dogma is treated that way - at least with clergy and religious.



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I think I said this before, months ago, but I don’t think I was ever asked if I believe in Luther’s Catechism. I had to take a Rooted Experience class (now just called Rooted) then we had some thing in the Worship Center where we were introduced while remaining standing in front of our seats.I doubt we were ever asked if we believe in the Catechism, though.

We dont have Confirmation, anymore either, which stopped sometime before I joined.

 

[Josiah]

I think I said this before, months ago, but I don’t think I was ever asked if I believe in Luther’s Catechism. I had to take a Rooted Experience class (now just called Rooted) then we had some thing in the Worship Center where we were introduced while remaining standing in front of our seats.I doubt we were ever asked if we believe in the Catechism, though.

When you are Confirmed, a part of the rite is "Do you accept the teachings of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, as you have come to know them in Luther's Small Catechism, as true and correct? If so, answer "I do." You ARE held to doctrine... and specifically that taught in Luther's words in the Small Catechism. The Small Catechism

You will not be asked what you will or won't teach. You won't be asked if you agree with every resolution of the LCMS since 1847. You won't be asked if you agree with everything in the Book of Concord. You won't be asked if you believe in evolution or if there is life on some other planet. You won't be asked if you believe Mary was assumed into heaven. You won't be asked who will win the world's series or if Trump actually won the election in 2020. You won't be asked if you are pro-choice or pro-life. Even though LOTS of members of the parish (and probably your pastor) DO have views on all those things. And billions of other issues. Your pastor may even TEACH some of those things.

We don't have Confirmation anymore either, which stopped sometime before I joined.

I think you must have completely misunderstood. I can't image ANY Lutheran Church ending Confirmation, thus refusing to accept new members or affirm baptisms. I invite you to ask your pastor if the rite of Confirmation has been eliminated. I find it impossible that he'll say it has.




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[Faith]

When you are Confirmed, a part of the rite is "Do you accept the teachings of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, as you have come to know them in Luther's Small Catechism, as true and correct? If so, answer "I do." You ARE held to doctrine... and specifically that taught in Luther's words in the Small Catechism.

You will not be asked what you will or won't teach. You won't be asked if you agree with every resolution of the LCMS since 1847. You won't be asked if you agree with everything in the Book of Concord. You won't be asked if you believe in evolution or if there is life on some other planet. You won't be asked if you believe Mary was assumed into heaven. You won't be asked who will win the world's series or if Trump actually won the election in 2020. You won't be asked if you are pro-choice or pro-life. Even though LOTS of members of the parish (and probably your pastor) DO have views on all those things. And billions of other issues. Your pastor may even TEACH some of those things.


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I won’t be Confirmed. They don’t do that at my church anymore.

 

[Josiah]

I won’t be Confirmed. They don’t do that at my church anymore.

I'm 100% certain you completely misunderstand your church on this. I invite you to specifically ask your pastor is your parish has eliminated the Rite of Confirmation, I'm absolutely certain he will tell you it has not. But IF he says yes, then I asked that you please inform me of his name and the parish he serves; after conversation with him, if this INCREDIBLE thing is true, his district president MUST be so informed. And I'd be shocked no member of that parish has not already done so.


But again, if you join the church (and you can't if you aren't confirmed - that's by synodical polity) you will be publicly asked "Do you accept the teachings of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, as you have come to know them in Luther's Small Catechism, as true and correct? If so, answer "I do." You ARE held to doctrine... and specifically that taught in Luther's words in the Small Catechism. See The Small Catechism

You will not be asked what you will or won't teach. You won't be asked if you agree with every resolution of the LCMS since 1847. You won't be asked if you agree with everything in the Book of Concord. You won't be asked if you believe in evolution or if there is life on some other planet. You won't be asked if you believe Mary was assumed into heaven. You won't be asked who will win the world's series or if Trump actually won the election in 2020. You won't be asked if you are pro-choice or pro-life. Even though LOTS of members of the parish (and probably your pastor) DO have views on all those things. And billions of other issues. Your pastor may even TEACH some of those things. But you will asked if you ACCEPT the teachings of Luther in the Small Catechism as true and correct. That's it. That's all.



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[Faith]

I'm 100% certain you completely misunderstand your church on this. I invite you to specifically ask your pastor is your parish has eliminated the Rite of Confirmation, I'm absolutely certain he will tell you it has not. But IF he says yes, then I asked that you please inform me of his name and the parish he serves; after conversation with him, if this INCREDIBLE thing is true, his district president MUST be so informed. And I'd be shocked no member of that parish has not already done so.


But again, if you join the church (and you can't if you aren't confirmed - that's by synodical polity) you will be publicly asked "Do you accept the teachings of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, as you have come to know them in Luther's Small Catechism, as true and correct? If so, answer "I do." You ARE held to doctrine... and specifically that taught in Luther's words in the Small Catechism. See The Small Catechism

You will not be asked what you will or won't teach. You won't be asked if you agree with every resolution of the LCMS since 1847. You won't be asked if you agree with everything in the Book of Concord. You won't be asked if you believe in evolution or if there is life on some other planet. You won't be asked if you believe Mary was assumed into heaven. You won't be asked who will win the world's series or if Trump actually won the election in 2020. You won't be asked if you are pro-choice or pro-life. Even though LOTS of members of the parish (and probably your pastor) DO have views on all those things. And billions of other issues. Your pastor may even TEACH some of those things. But you will asked if you ACCEPT the teachings of Luther in the Small Catechism as true and correct. That's it. That's all.



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It is true. I just asked a friend of mine from church who has kids Confirmation age and she sent me a copy of what one of the staff had sent her when she asked.

 

[Faith]

And no. I’m NOT going to let you call them to raise heck there. Like I said, I’m probably not even staying anyway.

she was told that the kids Confirmed oftentimes don’t to just get their certificate, then never go back to church. So instead they have other programs for kids that age. I guess this applies to adults who join as well because my pastor tod me a few years ago that we dont have. Onfirmation anymore. I THINK he reasoning was what my friend was told, but it was a long time ago and I’m not sure.

 

[Josiah]

And no. I’m NOT going to let you call them to raise heck there. Like I said, I’m probably not even staying anyway.

she was told that the kids Confirmed oftentimes don’t to just get their certificate, then never go back to church. So instead they have other programs for kids that age. I guess this applies to adults who join as well because my pastor tod me a few years ago that we dont have. Onfirmation anymore. I THINK he reasoning was what my friend was told, but it was a long time ago and I’m not sure.

I think you are confusing CLASSES for Confirmation with Confirmation. You are confusing ways and means to prepare baptized persons for Confirmation with Confirmation itself. You are confusing Confirmation CLASSES with the rite of Confirmation. I'm not talking about classes, I'm talking about Confirmation.

IF that church has eliminated the Rite of Confirmation, it is violating the polity of the LCMS. Now, it is free to PREPARE people for Confirmation is any way it desires, and it can do so for anyone of any age it desires, but it CANNOT eliminate Confirmation. If your parish has done that, it is essential that the District President knows that; it is acting contrary to the required polity of the LCMS.

See post # 70.




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[Faith]

I think you are confusing CLASSES for Confirmation with Confirmation. You are confusing ways and means to prepare baptized persons for Confirmation with Confirmation itself. You are confusing Confirmation CLASSES with the rite of Confirmation. I'm not talking about classes, I'm talking about Confirmation.

IF that church has eliminated the Rite of Confirmation, it is violating the polity of the LCMS. Now, it is free to PREPARE people for Confirmation is any way it desires, and it can do so for anyone of any age it desires, but it CANNOT eliminate Confirmation. If your parish has done that, it is essential that the District President knows that; it is acting contrary to the required polity of the LCMS.

See post # 70.




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No, I don’t think I’m incorrect on this, because I, myself was never confirmed anywhere but the RCC as a kid. And was told by my pastor they don’t have Confirmation anymore.

 

[Josiah]

And was told by my pastor they don’t have Confirmation anymore.

See post 75

They don't have traditional Confirmation CLASSES or they have eliminated Confirmation?

If they have eliminated Confirmation, have they also eliminated all baptisms? (Can't have one without the other). Have they eliminated church membership? (Can't have that without Confirmation).

But IF what you are saying is the case, this parish has eliminated Baptism, Confirmation and Membership, then your whole issue seems entirely moot. They won't ask you to believe ANYTHING. And there's nothing in the church where what you believe matters. Believe what you want.

But you have completely misunderstood your church. A church with the stance you are conveying it holds CANNOT be a part of the LCMS.



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[Faith]

See post 75

They don't have traditional Confirmation CLASSES or they have eliminated Confirmation?

If they have eliminated Confirmation, have they also eliminated all baptisms? (Can't have one without the other). Have they eliminated church membership? (Can't have that without Confirmation).

But IF what you are saying is the case, this parish has eliminated Baptism, Confirmation and Membership, then your whole issue seems entirely moot. They won't ask you to believe ANYTHING. And there's nothing in the church where what you believe matters. Believe what you want.

But you have completely misunderstood your church. A church with the stance you are conveying it holds CANNOT be a part of the LCMS.



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From what I remember he said they eliminated Confirmation.I asked my friend just to be sure I’m getting this right and am now waiting for another reply.I’ll let you know when I hear from her. She might be at work.

 

[Faith]

See post 75

They don't have traditional Confirmation CLASSES or they have eliminated Confirmation?

If they have eliminated Confirmation, have they also eliminated all baptisms? (Can't have one without the other). Have they eliminated church membership? (Can't have that without Confirmation).

But IF what you are saying is the case, this parish has eliminated Baptism, Confirmation and Membership, then your whole issue seems entirely moot. They won't ask you to believe ANYTHING. And there's nothing in the church where what you believe matters. Believe what you want.

But you have completely misunderstood your church. A church with the stance you are conveying it holds CANNOT be a part of the LCMS.



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They have not eliminated Baptism and membership Is allowed for those who’ve gone through Rooted, but wasn’t strongly encouraged. Rooted was strongly encouraged, but not actual membership. I was told there are people who’ve been going there for years who aren’t “official”members.

 

[Faith]

From what I remember he said they eliminated Confirmation.I asked my friend just to be sure I’m getting this right and am now waiting for another reply.I’ll let you know when I hear from her. She might be at work.

I reread the email she’d received from a staff member and he said that we no longer have a confirmation process and then went on to talk about how there is no Confirmation. He said they have a class called Sacrament Instruction (whatever they teach there without having Confirmation, I don’t know), mission trips, worship for that typical age group etc.
You know, unless it’s a huge misunderstanding on the wording of four people, including myself.