Gifts of the Holy Ghost

[1689Dave]

I have made my points in posts (1) and (20), with Scripture.

Choose any point you like.

And answer my questions in posts (8,10,15,17) concerning your points which were made without Scripture.

You can assume anything you like.

Lees

I assume you cannot produce the scripture to back your claims, or you would here and now.

 

[Lees]

I assume you cannot produce the scripture to back your claims, or you would here and now.

You can't get out of the lie you told in saying I did not supply Scripture. My posts (1) and (20) prove it.

You can't support what you said with Scripture which is why you refuse to answer my questions.

You can assume all you like, but that too is a lie because I have provided Scripture. Again, posts (1) and (20).

Lees

 

[1689Dave]

@Lees; If your gifts had not expired with the apostles, through whose hands the Holy Spirit distributed them, they would be spontaneous, not learned, and mimicked as they are today. And they would exist Churchwide throughout history, beyond the few sects claiming them today.

“God also bearing them (the Apostles) witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” (Hebrews 2:4)

 

[1689Dave]

You can't get out of the lie you told in saying I did not supply Scripture. My posts (1) and (20) prove it.

You can't support what you said with Scripture which is why you refuse to answer my questions.

You can assume all you like, but that too is a lie because I have provided Scripture. Again, posts (1) and (20).

Lees

See post #43. Also, you are missing the main part of the story. Only an Apostle could distribute the gifts. Only a few had them.

 

[Lamb]

@Lees the member @1689Dave has asked you to pose your question in a different manner and you refuse and then you attempt to bully him here....that's part of the problem with what's going on. Please post your question in a different way.

 

[Albion]

Scripture disagrees with this.

I think we'll find that that isn't so.

Only the Apostles communicated the gifts to others through their hands. (Apart from the two outpourings). No mention of your guys doing this.

What you're saying is at you are generalizing from an example or two found in scripture, but not that scripture identifies one and only one valid method, etc.

It's the same mistake people make when they think that infant baptism is wrong simply because they can point to a verse in scripture that's about an adult being baptized or being told that it's expected of a new believer.

 

[1689Dave]

I think we'll find that that isn't so.

What you're saying is at you are generalizing from an example or two found in scripture, but not that scripture identifies one and only one valid method, etc.

It's the same mistake people make when they think that infant baptism is wrong simply because they can point to a verse in scripture that's about an adult being baptized or being told that it's expected of a new believer.

Faith comes from hearing the word. I cannot have faith if your opinions are not grounded in the word.

 

[Albion]

Faith comes from hearing the word.

So...reading the word of God won't work??

It's this sort of ultra-literal approach to every last thing in Scripture that leads to the kind of mistakes I was referring to in my previous post.

 

[1689Dave]

So...reading the word of God won't work??

It's this sort of ultra-literal approach to every last thing in Scripture that leads to the kind of mistakes I was referring to in my previous post.

So if you wing it and write your own scripture everything is OK?

“And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.” Luke 4:4 (KJV 1900)

 

[Albion]

So if you wing it and write your own scripture everything is OK?

I can only conclude from that reply that you don't have a reply. Nobody here mentioned -- let alone having actually endorsed it -- the idea of writing one's own Bible.

 

[1689Dave]

I can only conclude from that reply that you don't have a reply. Nobody here mentioned -- let alone having actually endorsed it -- the idea of writing one's own Bible.

If you go by your Idea, rather than Scripture that never mentions it, how do you not supersede scripture with your ideas?

 

[Albion]

If you go by your Idea, rather than Scripture that never mentions it, how do you not supersede scripture with your ideas?

First, it's hardly MY idea, in as much as 2000 years of Church history and the great majority of Christian churches, both Catholic and Protestant, oppose the innovations of the anabaptist wing of the Reformation whose followers practiced REbaptism (where's that to be found in scripture?).

That movement's spiritual descendants today will also baptize 8 year olds, 10 year olds, or children in their early teens, pretending, as they do, that such candidates are de facto adults.

Find ANY OF THAT described in Scripture and we can continue.

 

[1689Dave]

First, it's hardly MY idea, in as much as 2000 years of Church history and the great majority of Christian churches, both Catholic and Protestant, oppose the innovations of the anabaptist wing of the Reformation whose followers practiced REbaptism (where's that to be found in scripture?).

That movement's spiritual descendants today will also baptize 8 year olds, 10 year olds, or children in their early teens, pretending, as they do, that such candidates are de facto adults.

Find ANY OF THAT described in Scripture and we can continue.

There's a question Baptists have, were they really baptized? It's safe to stick with scripture and not safe to follow church dictates that are not found in scripture.

 

[Albion]

There's a question Baptists have, were they really baptized?

Let's be entirely clear now, okay? Those people (recent adult converts to the kind of church you have in mind) are TOLD that any baptism they'd received elsewhere and prior to whatever age that particular minister and the denomination chooses to accept, is, by definition, invalid. And it doesn't matter whether the candidate, the prospective new church member, believes that his earlier baptism was really real or not.

In short, the POV that famously got the Rebaptizers of 500 years ago denounced by both Catholics and Protestants...still carries on.

 

[1689Dave]

Let's be entirely clear now, okay? Those people (recent adult converts to the kind of church you have in mind) are TOLD that any baptism they'd received elsewhere and prior to whatever age that particular minister and the denomination chooses to accept, is, by definition, invalid.

In short, the POV that famously got the Rebaptizers of 500 years ago denounced by both Catholics and Protestants...still carries on.

Let scripture settle it.

 

[Albion]

Let scripture settle it.

I believe we've already done that. You were unable to find anything in Scripture that advocates or even describes the procedures that I have outlined here--the ones that stand in opposition to the baptismal practices of the majority of Christian churches.

 

[1689Dave]

I believe we've already done that. You were unable to find anything in Scripture that advocates or even describes the procedures that I have outlined here--the ones that stand in opposition to the baptismal practices of the majority of Christian churches.

Where do you find infant baptism in scripture? I would like to learn your take on this.

 

[Albion]

Where do you find infant baptism in scripture? I would like to learn your take on this.

That isn't the question. It's the baptistic churches which claim that Scripture authorizes ONLY adult baptisms (yet they have no uniform teaching among themselves concerning what constitutes being an adult!)

The mainline of Christianity, by contrast, simply does not find anything in Scripture that mandates any particular age restriction.

So, it's the former group, not the latter group, that doesn't find in Scripture any instructions to back up the baptismal policies that they adhere to.

 

[1689Dave]

That isn't the question. It's the baptistic churches which claim that Scripture authorizes ONLY adult baptisms (yet they have no uniform teaching among themselves concerning what constitutes being an adult!)

The mainline of Christianity, by contrast, simply does not find anything in Scripture that mandates any particular age restriction.

So, it's the former group, not the latter group, that doesn't find in Scripture any instructions to back up the baptismal policies that they adhere to.

I had a Lutheran friend that asked me why Baptists don't baptize infants. I told him I suppose they had too many that drowned. It was a joke course based on the definition of Baptize. He looked confused.

 

[Lamb]

I had a Lutheran friend that asked me why Baptists don't baptize infants. I told him I suppose they had too many that drowned. It was a joke course based on the definition of Baptize. He looked confused.

Well baptizo is "to wash" so I wonder how many people have drowned while being washed?