Decision Theology

[1689Dave]

Jesus was referring to himself in that statement made to his Apostles (i.e. the kingdom of God is in your midst...and yet you guys are looking elsewhere!).

So, there's no way that this verse proves anything about the claim we've been dealing with--altar calls, and so on.

If it concerns salvation, it does.

 

[Albion]

If it concerns salvation, it does.

You're disconnecting Faith from salvation, then?

 

[1689Dave]

You're disconnecting Faith from salvation, then?

No, The born-again persons, have faith but lack direction provided by the gospel. Cornelius would be an example.

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” Acts 10:34–35 (KJV 1900)

Only the born-again can do this.

 

[Albion]

No, The born-again persons, have faith but lack direction provided by the gospel.

What I see here is you altering the idea we have been discussing.

At first it was this:

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So Billy Graham and his forerunner Charles Finney deceived the host of listeners making them think a decision to accept Jesus would save them.

In other words, a non-believer accepting Christ has been "deceived" into thinking that he has been saved by believing in Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Now, it's this:

The truth is, God saved them making believers out of them. Had they not already believed (been saved), they would not have "gone forward".

I simply find no basis for thinking that everything Christ preached about salvation being made possible for people who come to him, believe in Him, trust in his promises, find a new life, etc. IN HIM is not the purpose of the Incarnation, the Cross, and His glorious resurrection and ascension.

 

[1689Dave]

What I see here is you altering the idea we have been discussing.

At first it was this:


In other words, a non-believer accepting Christ has been "deceived" into thinking that he has been saved by believing in Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Now, it's this:


I simply find no basis for thinking that everything Christ preached about salvation being made possible for people who come to him, believe in Him, trust in his promises, find a new life, etc. IN HIM is not the purpose of the Incarnation, the Cross, and His glorious resurrection and ascension.

Doesn't he say "all that the Father gives to me will come to me"? Did Cornelius come to him? How about all the born-again throughout the world? Did Jesus lie?

 

[Albion]

What you are referring to is God's eternal plan of salvation. And it may also refer to some sort of election or predestination, if that is one of your beliefs.

What it does not refer to is the process by which humans appropriate Christ's saving work on the Cross. The idea that Faith is just something that happens as the aftermath of a person having already been saved by a mystical intervention by God is contrary to much of what we find in the New Testament, including words straight from the Savior himself.

 

[1689Dave]

What you are referring to is God's eternal plan of salvation. And it may also refer to some sort of election or predestination, if that is one of your beliefs.

What it does not refer to is the process by which humans appropriate Christ's saving work on the Cross. The idea that Faith is just something that happens as the aftermath of a person having already been saved by a mystical intervention by God is contrary to much of what we find in the New Testament, including words straight from the Savior himself.

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Eternal life has no beginning or end but is always present in God. How can that not involve predestination?

 

[Albion]

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Eternal life has no beginning or end but is always present in God. How can that not involve predestination?

So, predestination is part of your thinking and explains at least somewhat the reason for the replies that have not connected with me. I guess knowing that is a gain.

As you know, Baptists come in many varieties, so others of us here don't want to make too many assumptions in advance.

 

[1689Dave]

So, predestination is part of your thinking and explains at least somewhat the reason for the replies that have not connected with me. I guess knowing that is a gain.

As you know, Baptists come in many varieties, so others of us here don't want to make too many assumptions in advance.

1689Dave reflects my adherence to the Westminster Confession and its offshoot the London Baptist Confession. Wasn't the Church of England from whence the Anglican Church came? You should be well grounded in the Westminster if so.

 

[Albion]

1689Dave reflects my adherence to the Westminster Confession and its offshoot the London Baptist Confession. Wasn't the Church of England from whence the Anglican Church came? You should be well grounded in the Westminster if so.

I'm not quite certain what you are addressing there, but yes, the Church of England is also referred to as the Anglican Church. And then too, daughter churches around the world are also referred to as Anglican. As for creeds, the Westminster Confession is not an official Anglican credal statement.

 

[1689Dave]

I'm not quite certain what you are addressing there, but yes, the Church of England is also referred to as the Anglican Church. And then too, daughter churches around the world are also referred to as Anglican. As for creeds, the Westminster Confession is not an official Anglican credal statement.

The Church of England funded and sponsored the Westminster Confession. Written in Westminster Abby.

The Westminster Confession of Faith is a Reformed confession of faith. ... In 1643, the English Parliament called upon "learned, godly and judicious Divines" to meet at Westminster Abbey in order to provide advice on issues of worship, doctrine, government and discipline of the Church of England. Their meetings, over a period of five years, ... Westminster Confession of Faith - Wikipedia

 

[Albion]

The Church of England funded and sponsored the Westminster Confession. Written in Westminster Abby.

Nevertheless, the WCF is not one of the accepted, official credal statements of the Church of England or the Anglican Communion or, for that matter, any of the independent Anglican churches in the USA that I am familiar with, nor even of the Reformed Episcopal Church. Sorry.

 

[1689Dave]

Nevertheless, the WCF is not one of the accepted, official credal statements of the Church of England or the Anglican Communion or, for that matter, any of the independent Anglican churches in the USA that I am familiar with, nor even of the Reformed Episcopal Church. Sorry.

I thought the CoE embraced it at one time. I'll have to look into that.

 

[Albion]

I thought the CoE embraced it at one time. I'll have to look into that.

Okay. You'll probably be interested in the history that's involved there with Cromwell, the Civil War, and the Interregnum, etc. but the WCF has no standing in Anglicanism, and you apparently assumed that it does.

I have read a few comments from individual Evangelical Anglicans concerning their own high regard for the WCF and some other Continental Protestant statements of faith, but that's about it.

 

[1689Dave]

Okay. You'll probably be interested in the history that's involved there with Cromwell, the Civil War, and the Interregnum, etc. but the WCF has no standing in Anglicanism, and you apparently assumed that it does.

I have read a few comments from individual Evangelical Anglicans concerning their own high regard for the WCF and some other Continental Protestant statements of faith, but that's about it.

I just thought that the CoE meant for it to serve their purposes.

In 1643, the English Parliament called upon "learned, godly and judicious Divines" to meet at Westminster Abbey in order to provide advice on issues of worship, doctrine, government and discipline of the Church of England. Their meetings, over a period of five years, produced the confession of faith, as well as a Larger Catechism and a Shorter Catechism. For more than three hundred years, various churches around the world have adopted the confession and the catechisms as their standards of doctrine, subordinate to the Bible.

Westminster Confession of Faith - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org