What or Who is the Church?

[Cassia]

Yes. I believe they are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel listed in (Rev. 7:4-8)

Lees

And they have a role to teach the church according to that belief. And yet the scripture says the church is to display the manifold wisdom of God to the great cloud of witnesses. Anyway, past my bedtime. Carry on.

 

[Lees]

Therefore, it is incorrect (and unScriptural) to contend that Christ's church did not exist until the Holy Spirit came upon those who were gathered in the upper room.


There's no basis for such a claim.


That's your theory, not what we find in Acts 2.

That aside, here's an article on the subject that explains the issue well--

Is Pentecost "The Birthday of the Church"? (Heidelberg Catechism, Q54) - Gary Neal Hansen -

garynealhansen.com

You say nothing. All you say is no, no, no. Why not address the verses I gave as proof. Why? Because you don't know and cant prove your position. All you can do is send me to a link.

Sorry, go ahead and study your link and then get back to me with something.

Lees

 

[Lees]

And they have a role to teach the church according to that belief. And yet the scripture says the church is to display the manifold wisdom of God to the great cloud of witnesses. Anyway, past my bedtime. Carry on.

My position would be that the Church is already gone at this time, having been raptured out prior to the Tribulation. The 144,000 will certainly be powerful witnesses, powerful evangelist's.

Pleasure talking to you.

Lees

 

[Cassia]

My position would be that the Church is already gone at this time, having been raptured out prior to the Tribulation. The 144,000 will certainly be powerful witnesses, powerful evangelist's.

Pleasure talking to you.

Lees

If that were to be true it would still remain that during the age of the gentiles. which is from the captivity of Babylon, until now, that all would be brought together in Christ. Your argument still does not stand. You too btw

 

[Lees]

lees



The Church existed in the OT and its foundation was the Lord Jesus Christ even then Isa 28:16


Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

1 Cor 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Yes Christ did promise to build His Church Matt 16 however He was the foundation, the Son of the living God, and to build His Church means to build upon it, not to start it from scratch

The word build in Matt 16:18 is the greek word oy-kod-om-eh'-o and means:

1. to restore by building, to rebuild, repair

God began to build, restore, repair the Church when He started calling in the Gentile remnant Acts 15:14-18

14 Simeon[Peter] hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

This is what Rom 11 is about in grafting in the Gentiles in the Olive Tree

Thats how Christ rebuild His Church, its now expanding, being populated with chosen gentiles who will be called by His Name Israel !

The prophecy in (Is. 28:16) is just that...a prophecy. Jesus Christ would be the Foundation and Corner Stone. That would be true for Israel also to whom it was given.

No, the word 'build' means to build. Not repair or restore. See (3618) of Strongs numbering system.

The word 'build' in (Acts 15:16) is a different word. See (456) of Strongs numbering system.

Lees

 

[Lees]

If that were to be true it would still remain that during the age of the gentiles. which is from the captivity of Babylon, until now, that all would be brought together in Christ. Your argument still does not stand. You too btw

Well, salvation is always based upon Christ. But I don't believe that means all who are ever saved will make up the unified Body and Bride of Christ.

Israel didn't go around evangelizing with any Gospel. And the Gospel of the Kingdom found in (Mattew) is not the Gospel of the Church. And the everlasting Gospel, I believe, will be that preached during the Tribulation. (Rev. 14:6) Neither is it the Gospel of the Church.

That's fine. I am under no illusion that any will be convinced. It's good food for thought.

Lees

 

[Cassia]

Well, salvation is always based upon Christ. But I don't believe that means all who are ever saved will make up the unified Body and Bride of Christ.

Israel didn't go around evangelizing with any Gospel. And the Gospel of the Kingdom found in (Mattew) is not the Gospel of the Church. And the everlasting Gospel, I believe, will be that preached during the Tribulation. (Rev. 14:6) Neither is it the Gospel of the Church.

That's fine. I am under no illusion that any will be convinced. It's good food for thought.

Lees

The 3 distinctions of the gospel are good fft too. You've got me awake and thinking. ;p;

 

[Lees]

"The idea of an Israel-Church distinction, which is a fundamental doctrine of dispensationalism, is built on an interpretive fiction. There is continuity between the covenants. There were Israelite believers prior to, during, and after Jesus’ earthly ministry. They were incorporated into the “great cloud of witnesses” from the Old Covenant age (Heb. 12:1)."
Who Is Defending Classic Dispensationalism Today? - The American Vision

Your accusation of 'interpretive fiction' is not true. I could easily say the same thing of your and others views.

Did Israel exist from Adam to Moses? Only in your mind maybe.

Lees

 

[Lees]

The 3 distinctions of the gospel are good fft too. You've got me awake and thinking. ;p;

Another distinction is the Wife of Jehovah (Is. 54:5) and the Bride of Christ. Of course at this time Israel has been given a bill of divorcement, (Jer. 3:8) but she will be brought back.

Lees

 

[Cassia]

Another distinction is the Wife of Jehovah (Is. 54:5) and the Bride of Christ. Of course at this time Israel has been given a bill of divorcement, (Jer. 3:8) but she will be brought back.

Lees

I was given a clear distinction on that when I was made to understand that the betrothed, as the bride to be, will be one with Christ during the Millenium when human/divine gvmnt will rule together, but into eternity the wife of old and the bride of the NC will become one in eternity when all will become one in the Father. That doesn't make me a believer that Israel is separate from the church though. It just proves that God is not a bigamist.

 

[Cassia]

1 Corinthians 15:20-23​

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Oh ok now I think I get what your saying

Yes, (1 Thess. 4:15-17) speak to the Rapture of the Church.

The dead in Christ are the Christians, and Christians only.

The Jews prior to the Church are not part of the Rapture. Only the dead in Christ and the living in Christ make up the Church.

The resurrection of the Jews occurs at the end of the Tribulation. (Dan. 12:1-2).

Lees

Just the dead in Christ at the second advent rising; I think most would agree with you but they would place that at eternity. A matter of jargon.

 

[brightfame52]

lees

Paul is contrasting Jews and Gentiles. Both are branches. Israel is not the root. (11:16).

Paul is first of all contrasting national Israel with Spiritual elect Israel Rom 9:6 and no Israel isnt the root, Christ is the root, the true vine Jn 15

Gentiles are not being grafted into Israel. They are made partakers of the same salvation, the same root.

They are not being grafted into the physical nation Israel, but they are being grafted into Jesus Christ who is the root of all the True Israel, because He is the True Faithful Israel who has prevailed with God, and those chosen in Him Eph 1:4 are also Israel true who has prevailed with God

And, this does not prove any Church of Christ in the Old Testament as this would not have occurred until after Israel's rejection of Christ.

Sure it does, unfortunately its clear you cant see it. The Church, Spiritual remnant Israel existed way before Nationa Israels rejection, in fact they received the promises of God, says so right here Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel[national] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election[foreknown] hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The church were those people of God in Israel national that God foreknew Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

They have always existed, even in elijahs day, and they are the foreknown Church Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

(Heb. 12:1-2) does not prove any Church of Christ in the Old Testament. Jesus is certainly the Author and Finisher of our faith. That faith, in Jesus brings one into His Church. Couldn't occur till after Pentecost.

Yes it does prove it, you are in denial and cant comprehend it. He being the author of our faith is synomous with Him being the Head of His Body the Church, He gives all His Church members His Faith, the Faith of Abraham, which makes all believers the seed of Abraham, in the OT and NT See Head and Author are comparatively the same position if you study and compare the words

Being part of the 'household of God' in (Eph. 2:19) doesn't mean the Church is in the Old Testament. It means Gentiles are now part of the household of God in the Church of Christ. Which began at Pentecost.

Yes it does mean that, in the same fashion it means the household of Faith, all the Saints from OT unto the end of the world, those with Faith from Jesus, is the Church, which He is Head . And again the Church didn't begin at Pentecost, it began its rebuilding and expansion program by adding later the Gentile election of Grace.

 

[Albion]

You say nothing.

Lees

Then read it again and notice that my point was an uncomplicated but necessary one: your speculation is not supported by Acts as you have insisted it is.

That was the purpose, not the introduction of a rival theory. If there is anything more to say on this particular subject, let's have it be in step with the Bible instead of some fundamentalist guesswork.

 

[brightfame52]

lees

The prophecy in (Is. 28:16) is just that...a prophecy. Jesus Christ would be the Foundation and Corner Stone. That would be true for Israel also to whom it was given.

He was even then the foundation stone, for the prophets and apostles Eph 2:20

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The OT Prophets spoke of Jesus Christ the foundation Lk 24:47

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The Prophets had Faith in Christ who was to come Isa 53:5-11

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

They had Faith that Christ would confirm their and our Salvation 1 Pet 1:9-13

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Notice Vs 11 says the Spirit of Christ was in them, proving that they belonged to Christ Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Prophets were in Christ, and He was in them, He was their Head just like He is the Head of believers today, and puts His Spirit in us.

No, the word 'build' means to build. Not repair or restore. See (3618) of Strongs numbering system.

False, it means all the above, and i showed you that. The word build in Matt 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

its the word oikodomeō:

o build a house, erect a building

1. to build (up from the foundation)
2. to restore by building, to rebuild, repair

Then I showed you how the tabernacle of David was to be rebuilt by the adding of the gentiles elect Acts 15

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Act 15:17
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

The words build again is the same word oikodomeō but adds the prefix ana which means:

up or upward and it simply means

1. to build again

Friend I see you only denying what is obvious for the prejudice of your teachings of men.

 

[brightfame52]

lees

Well, salvation is always based upon Christ. But I don't believe that means all who are ever saved will make up the unified Body and Bride of Christ.

But it does, even the OT Prophet John realized that Jn 3:29


He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

 

[Lees]

1 Corinthians 15:20-23​

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Oh ok now I think I get what your saying

Just the dead in Christ at the second advent rising; I think most would agree with you but they would place that at eternity. A matter of jargon.

I see the Rapture and the Second Coming as two different events. And at two different times.

The Rapture occurs before the Tribulation, making it 7 years prior to the Second Coming which occurs a the end of the Tribulation.

If the Raputre occurs at the end of the Tribulation, we need not look or watch for our being called out. Because we just wait till the Tribulation occurs before we need to get ready.

Lees

 

[Lees]

lees



Paul is first of all contrasting national Israel with Spiritual elect Israel Rom 9:6 and no Israel isnt the root, Christ is the root, the true vine Jn 15



They are not being grafted into the physical nation Israel, but they are being grafted into Jesus Christ who is the root of all the True Israel, because He is the True Faithful Israel who has prevailed with God, and those chosen in Him Eph 1:4 are also Israel true who has prevailed with God



Sure it does, unfortunately its clear you cant see it. The Church, Spiritual remnant Israel existed way before Nationa Israels rejection, in fact they received the promises of God, says so right here Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel[national] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election[foreknown] hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The church were those people of God in Israel national that God foreknew Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

They have always existed, even in elijahs day, and they are the foreknown Church Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Yes it does prove it, you are in denial and cant comprehend it. He being the author of our faith is synomous with Him being the Head of His Body the Church, He gives all His Church members His Faith, the Faith of Abraham, which makes all believers the seed of Abraham, in the OT and NT See Head and Author are comparatively the same position if you study and compare the words



Yes it does mean that, in the same fashion it means the household of Faith, all the Saints from OT unto the end of the world, those with Faith from Jesus, is the Church, which He is Head . And again the Church didn't begin at Pentecost, it began its rebuilding and expansion program by adding later the Gentile election of Grace.

No. You were referencing (Rom. 11:16). The context and contrast there is between Jew and Gentile...not national and spiritual Israel. See (Rom. 11:13)

No. Christ is not the root. And Christ being a vine in (John 15) has nothing to do with the Olive tree in (Rom. 11). (John 15) can be compared to (Is. 5) The root in (Rom. 11) would be the salvation God was working out based upon the Abrahamic Covenant. Of which both saved Jews and Gentiles are but branches.

No. The Church of Jesus Christ is not spiritual Israel. (Rom. 11:7) is contrasting the national unbelieving Jew with the elect Jews. The elect Jews would become part of the Church which is Jew and Gentile. That doesn't make the Church spiriutal Israel. And it certainly doesn't make the Church found in the Old Testament. Those elect Jews could not become part of the Church till after Pentecost. Just because there were/are elect Jews doesn't mean the Church is present at that time. So, your use of (Rom. 11:2) is null and void.

Christ could not be the Head of His Body till He was resurrected and ascended into Heaven and the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost. (Col. 1:18) Thus the Church began at Pentecost. Both the Church and Israel are of Abraham's seed. That doesn't mean all are part of the Church. Just like it doesn't mean all are part of Israel. (Rom. 4:13-17)

Christ is not rebuilding the Church. He is building. I have showed you that already.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Then read it again and notice that my point was an uncomplicated but necessary one: your speculation is not supported by Acts as you have insisted it is.

That was the purpose, not the introduction of a rival theory. If there is anything more to say on this particular subject, let's have it be in step with the Bible instead of some fundamentalist guesswork.

Yes...saying nothing is very uncomplicated.

I know that was your purpose. How could you have any other.

Lees

 

[Lees]

lees



He was even then the foundation stone, for the prophets and apostles Eph 2:20

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The OT Prophets spoke of Jesus Christ the foundation Lk 24:47

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The Prophets had Faith in Christ who was to come Isa 53:5-11



They had Faith that Christ would confirm their and our Salvation 1 Pet 1:9-13



Notice Vs 11 says the Spirit of Christ was in them, proving that they belonged to Christ Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Prophets were in Christ, and He was in them, He was their Head just like He is the Head of believers today, and puts His Spirit in us.




False, it means all the above, and i showed you that. The word build in Matt 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

its the word oikodomeō:

o build a house, erect a building

1. to build (up from the foundation)
2. to restore by building, to rebuild, repair

Then I showed you how the tabernacle of David was to be rebuilt by the adding of the gentiles elect Acts 15

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Act 15:17
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

The words build again is the same word oikodomeō but adds the prefix ana which means:

up or upward and it simply means

1. to build again

Friend I see you only denying what is obvious for the prejudice of your teachings of men.

The entire Old Testament is about Jesus Christ. That doesn't mean the Church of Christ is in the Old Testament.

Concerning your 'mistaken' use of the word 'build' that is on you. I gave you the correct places to verify.

You may as well make the word 'build' mean 'restore'. Since you and other like to make Israel mean the Church and vice versa. Next time do your homework.

Lees

 

[Lees]

lees



But it does, even the OT Prophet John realized that Jn 3:29


He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Non-sense.

How does the prophet John realize that?

How is the friend of the Bridegoom the Bride?

Lees