What or Who is the Church?

[Albion]

Yes...saying nothing is very uncomplicated.

Do you not understand what was written to you...or do you just not want to admit to having been corrected? Help us out here so this issue can be resolved.

 

[Lees]

Do you not understand what was written to you...or do you just not want to admit to having been corrected? Help us out here so this issue can be resolved.

Oh, I understand what you wrote in post #(27). All you wrote is 'no'. There is nothing in that.

Then you give a link. If you don't know the information then you best stay out of the discussion. I'm not going to debate or discuss with a link.

So, do yourself a favor. Do your homework. Present your information. Not someone else's. Then get back with me.

Of course I understand why people like to use links. Keeps them safe. It's not 'me' that said it. It's the link.

You haven't corrected anyone. Your use of the phrase 'help us out here' is common among forums. It is used when you don't know what you are talking about and then try to provide a smoke screen. You use the word 'us' because you can't stand alone. It's your way of crying for help.

Lees

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Your accusation of 'interpretive fiction' is not true. I could easily say the same thing of your and others views.

Did Israel exist from Adam to Moses? Only in your mind maybe.

Lees

If you look at the quote marks it is Gary Demar who makes the accusation, except I don't think he means it as an accusation, but rather as a statement of fact. He has studied Dispensationalism for about 30+ years. Read some of his materials as it would be a shame to put your hope in something false, if indeed it is false. Gary sure thinks so and cannot find any Bible verses to support it. If you can find Bible verses to support it, please send them to Gary Demar as he is looking for them.

 

[Lees]

If you look at the quote marks it is Gary Demar who makes the accusation, except I don't think he means it as an accusation, but rather as a statement of fact. He has studied Dispensationalism for about 30+ years. Read some of his materials as it would be a shame to put your hope in something false, if indeed it is false. Gary sure thinks so and cannot find any Bible verses to support it. If you can find Bible verses to support it, please send them to Gary Demar as he is looking for them.

You presented it. You're responsible for it.

It is an accusation. As I said, I could say the same thing of your views.

I know all the arguments against Dispensationalism. And whenever I start a thread on it, pretty soon no one participates. You know why? Becuase it is supported in the Scripture.

So, if this so called Gary Demar can't find verses to support it, he is in denial and just doesn't want to find any.

My point in this thread is that the Church began on the day of Pentecost. I have given Scripture to support it. Most don't address the Scripture I have given. They just tell me why this can't be so.

So, answer my question. Did Israel exist between the time of Adam and Moses?

Lees

 

[Cassia]

I see the Rapture and the Second Coming as two different events. And at two different times.

The Rapture occurs before the Tribulation, making it 7 years prior to the Second Coming which occurs a the end of the Tribulation.

If the Raputre occurs at the end of the Tribulation, we need not look or watch for our being called out. Because we just wait till the Tribulation occurs before we need to get ready.

Lees

. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

If you have read what I said about the bride and wife becoming one in eternity you will see that the reference

 

[Cassia]

You presented it. You're responsible for it.

It is an accusation. As I said, I could say the same thing of your views.

I know all the arguments against Dispensationalism. And whenever I start a thread on it, pretty soon no one participates. You know why? Becuase it is supported in the Scripture.

So, if this so called Gary Demar can't find verses to support it, he is in denial and just doesn't want to find any.

My point in this thread is that the Church began on the day of Pentecost. I have given Scripture to support it. Most don't address the Scripture I have given. They just tell me why this can't be so.

So, answer my question. Did Israel exist between the time of Adam and Moses?

Lees

ok I'll bite. Yes it existed between adam and Moses starting with Jacob. But they were in captivity. Just like from the age of the gentiles, that also pertains. but what you are trying to do is convey a message that is denomination specific so my recommendation if you want any participation is to go to demoniation specific forums and see if you can get someone to speaks da same language there. silly forums

 

[brightfame52]

lees

No. Christ is not the root.

Yes He is the root

And Christ being a vine in (John 15) has nothing to do with the Olive tree in (Rom. 11).

Yes its the same thing just different words.

No. The Church of Jesus Christ is not spiritual Israel. (Rom. 11:7) is contrasting the national unbelieving Jew with the elect Jews

Yes the Church is Spiritual Israel the elect jews at that time. The elect gentiles is about to join them[the elect jews] thats the Mystery of the Church

The elect Jews would become part of the Church which is Jew and Gentile.

Correct which is Spiritual elect Israel, but the elect gentiles join the elect jews which is Israel elect, contrasted with national israel.

And it certainly doesn't make the Church found in the Old Testament.

Sure it does, elect Israel, saved jews from the ethnic nation, is the Church, the Body of Christ in the OT

Those elect Jews could not become part of the Church till after Pentecost

Thats wrong and backwards, the elect gentiles began to be joined to the elect jews from Israel who were the Body of Christ initially, now the elect gentiles didnt start being converted until after Pentecost

Just because there were/are elect Jews doesn't mean the Church is present at that time.

The elect jews of the OT mixed in with National Israel, was the Church, the Body of Christ

So, your use of (Rom. 11:2) is null and void.

No its not. The foreknown is the Church, the Body of Christ in Rom 11:2 and Rom 8:29 those are Gods People whom He has predestinated to be conform to the image of Christ. David said as a OT Saint part of the body of Christ Ps 17:15

As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness/Image

Christ could not be the Head of His Body till He was resurrected and ascended into Heaven and the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost. (Col. 1:18)

Wrong and Col 1:18 proves that He was the Head of the Church from the beginning of Creation Col 1:16-18

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

He clearly was the Head of the Body in the beginning, then He was firstborn from the dead, but who is the beginning preceded being the firstborn from the dead.

Christ as the Mediator/Head was setup from everlasting Prov 8:22-23

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pro 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Both the Church and Israel are of Abraham's seed. That doesn't mean all are part of the Church.

Yes it does mean that

Just like it doesn't mean all are part of Israel. (Rom. 4:13-17)

All the elect jews and elect gentiles combine is the Church, Israel elect, the Spiritual seed of Abraham and of Christ, both jew and gentile elect are the Church and all the seed of Israel Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Christ is not rebuilding the Church. He is building. I have showed you that already.

I have showed you differently, the Church is being rebuilt and it includes the influx of gentile elect, and so thats How all Israel elect shall be saved !

 

[brightfame52]

lees

I see the Rapture and the Second Coming as two different events. And at two different times.

Yeah and unfortunaetly you wrong about that, they are the same event at the same time, you will see !

 

[brightfame52]

Non-sense.

How does the prophet John realize that?

How is the friend of the Bridegoom the Bride?

Lees

You not making sense. John was calling Jesus the bridegroom, Jesus Church the Bride, and John was the friend who hears the bridegrooms voice. John realizes it like how all truth is realized, by revelation of God.

 

[brightfame52]

lees

The entire Old Testament is about Jesus Christ.

Yep the Head of His Body the Church, so if is about Him, its also about His Church, for they are One

That doesn't mean the Church of Christ is in the Old Testament.

Sure it does, if the Head was in the OT so was the Body

Concerning your 'mistaken' use of the word 'build' that is on you. I gave you the correct places to verify.

Im good I looked the word build up, and gave you my findings, you dont accept it, fine with me

 

[Lees]

ok I'll bite. Yes it existed between adam and Moses starting with Jacob. But they were in captivity. Just like from the age of the gentiles, that also pertains. but what you are trying to do is convey a message that is denomination specific so my recommendation if you want any participation is to go to demoniation specific forums and see if you can get someone to speaks da same language there. silly forums

Israel would not be a nation until the time of Moses when God delivered them out of Egypt and gave them His laws. The earliest they could be considered a nation would be at the Passover. (Ex. 12:2) "This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you."

See (Gen. 46:3) when God spoke to Israel to assure him about going to Egypt. "And he said, I am God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation."

Also, see (Deut. 26:5) "...A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty and populous."

And until they were given the Law, and ratified the Law, they would not be an official nation. (Ex. 24:3) "...All the words which the LORD hath said will we do." See also (24:8).

Thus the time period between Adam and Moses is distinctly a period when God did not deal with man as He would later with Israel. (Rom. 5:13-15) And those believers during that time would not be called Israel.

My point: During that time period there were saved people. But they were not part of Israel. Israel had a beginning. The Church has a beginning. There was a time when Israel did not exist. There was a time when the Church did not exist.

I believe the Christian Theology arena is suitable for this thread.

Lees

 

[Cassia]

My point: During that time period there were saved people. But they were not part of Israel. Israel had a beginning. The Church has a beginning. There was a time when Israel did not exist. There was a time when the Church did not exist.

Your saying perhaps that before Abraham Jesus was still "I am"

 

[Albion]

Dispensationalism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This article ^ should clear up questions about where and when this fringe theory we've been dealing with originated as well as what its pet theories exactly are.

 

[Lees]

Your saying perhaps that before Abraham Jesus was still "I am"

I didn't say that, no.

What I said was that from Adam to Moses there were saved people. They were not part of Israel, as Israel didn't exist. In other words, there were saved people outside of Israel.

Meaning: All of the saved need not be part of Israel.

Meaning: All of the saved need not be part of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Meaning: All of the saved are not the Bride of Christ. All of the saved are not Israel.

So...what do you mean by your statement?

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

lees

My point: During that time period there were saved people. But they were not part of Israel. Israel had a beginning

Thats incorrect, the saved people were Israel but not the nation of israel. Jacob was Israel and his Spiritual seed before the nation was formulated

Israel had a beginning.

The nation did, but the people Israel didnt

The Church has a beginning

In Gen 3:15 the seed of the woman

There was a time when Israel did not exist. There was a time when the Church did not exist.

Only for the nation of Israel, not the people Israel, them God foreknew in Christ before the foundation, and predestinated them to the image of Christ.

 

[Joshua1Eight]

There is only 1 church, 1 denomination

 

[Albion]

There is only 1 church, 1 denomination

There is only one church. That's true in the ultimate sense of the word. All true believers in the Lord are members of that one church irrespective of denominational affiliation and regardless of whether they are living or deceased.

But it's wrong to claim that there is only one denomination. Moreover, it's silly, since the people who like to make that claim are usually the same people who also insist that there are actually 33,000 or 40,000 denominations!

Of course what they are trying to say there is that their own denomination is the only "real" one. The churches that other Christians belong to are said to be divided every which way, supposedly proving that all of those churches are invalid! It's a really lame argument but a great morale builder for people who have a need to feel better than other followers of the Lord Jesus Christ because of nothing more than which church building they head for on Sunday morning.

 

[Lees]

lees



Yes He is the root



Yes its the same thing just different words.



Yes the Church is Spiritual Israel the elect jews at that time. The elect gentiles is about to join them[the elect jews] thats the Mystery of the Church



Correct which is Spiritual elect Israel, but the elect gentiles join the elect jews which is Israel elect, contrasted with national israel.



Sure it does, elect Israel, saved jews from the ethnic nation, is the Church, the Body of Christ in the OT



Thats wrong and backwards, the elect gentiles began to be joined to the elect jews from Israel who were the Body of Christ initially, now the elect gentiles didnt start being converted until after Pentecost



The elect jews of the OT mixed in with National Israel, was the Church, the Body of Christ


No its not. The foreknown is the Church, the Body of Christ in Rom 11:2 and Rom 8:29 those are Gods People whom He has predestinated to be conform to the image of Christ. David said as a OT Saint part of the body of Christ Ps 17:15

As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness/Image



Wrong and Col 1:18 proves that He was the Head of the Church from the beginning of Creation Col 1:16-18

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

He clearly was the Head of the Body in the beginning, then He was firstborn from the dead, but who is the beginning preceded being the firstborn from the dead.

Christ as the Mediator/Head was setup from everlasting Prov 8:22-23

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pro 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.



Yes it does mean that



All the elect jews and elect gentiles combine is the Church, Israel elect, the Spiritual seed of Abraham and of Christ, both jew and gentile elect are the Church and all the seed of Israel Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,



I have showed you differently, the Church is being rebuilt and it includes the influx of gentile elect, and so thats How all Israel elect shall be saved !

No, you're wrong as I have showed you.

Lees

 

[Lees]

lees



Yeah and unfortunaetly you wrong about that, they are the same event at the same time, you will see !

How are they the same event?

Lees

 

[Lees]

You not making sense. John was calling Jesus the bridegroom, Jesus Church the Bride, and John was the friend who hears the bridegrooms voice. John realizes it like how all truth is realized, by revelation of God.

You didn't answer my question.

Lees