What or Who is the Church?

[Albion]

You want more. OK. (Matt. 16:18) The Church of Jesus Christ is yet future at the time Jesus said this to Peter. I will build. Not I am building.

"Build" implies something occurring over time. It takes a while to complete any building.

And that gets us to what Peter was so famously going to do on Pentecost when he preached to the crowds that had gathered from around the Empire. He preached in the languages each of his hearers understood, which resulted in thousands of them joining the existing followers of Jesus by being baptized.

That is the customary interpretation of those verses. And, by the way, Acts 2 does not say anything about the starting date of the church.

 

[Cassia]

One can't forget that the first building was from a rib, that represents Christ and the Church.

 

[Lees]

"Build" implies something occurring over time. It takes a while to complete any building.

And that gets us to what Peter was so famously going to do on Pentecost when he preached to the crowds that had gathered from around the Empire. He preached in the languages each of his hearers understood, which resulted in thousands of them joining the existing followers of Jesus by being baptized.

That is the customary interpretation of those verses. And, by the way, Acts 2 does not say anything about the starting date of the church.

Again, in (Matt. 16:18) Jesus said 'upon this rock I will build my church'. A future work.

By the way, the verses you chose to ignore in post #(20) explain very clearly that Pentecost is the beginning of the Church. You should read them. (Eph. 2:14-18) The forming of a new thing, a new body could only be done by the Spirit.

The giving of the Spirit in forming this new man was not possible until the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

(Acts 2), the coming of the Spirit, is the beginning of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Lees

 

[Lees]

One can't forget that the first building was from a rib, that represents Christ and the Church.

There are several parallels between the first and Last Adam. And we can find types pointing to Christ and His Bride the Church. That is true.

But, the Church was unknown in the Old Testament. Just as it was unknown in most of the Gospels. The Church was not being built yet. See (Eph. 3:4-6) "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

God also built the nation Israel. But the nation Israel is not the Church.

My doctrine is from the Dispensational teaching which reflects my views and opinions here.

Lees

 

[Cassia]

There are several parallels between the first and Last Adam. And we can find types pointing to Christ and His Bride the Church. That is true.

But, the Church was unknown in the Old Testament. Just as it was unknown in most of the Gospels. The Church was not being built yet. See (Eph. 3:4-6) "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

God also built the nation Israel. But the nation Israel is not the Church.

My doctrine is from the Dispensational teaching which reflects my views and opinions here.

Lees

Eph 3:10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.
18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Access to the throne of God's grace wasn't available before the accepted propitiation, which is Christ. That which is being built is the unfolding of God's manifold wisdom by the church in front of a great cloud of witnesses. Hebrews 12:22-23 the church of the first fruits refer also to the propitiation accepted by God at the time of accession.

That's a bit of dispensationalism, Judaism, etc etc but all biblical truth according to my understanding.

 

[brightfame52]

lees

. The Church of Jesus Christ had it's beginning on the day of Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Before that, there was no Church of Jesus Christ.

Hi there, I would disagree with you there. I believe the Church of Christ existed in the OT housed in the nation of Israel, being a remnant according to the election of grace. I believe the good olive tree of Rom 11 sets that forth Rom 11:17,24

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

There were certainly believers before that. But, they were not part of the Church of Christ.

I disagree, All believers from the beginning of the world belonged to Jesus Christ and His Church, He authored their Faith Heb 12:1-2

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses[Heb 11], let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Look at it like this, Christs Church is composed of the entire household of God, from the beginning Eph 2:19


Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

 

[Albion]

Again, in (Matt. 16:18) Jesus said 'upon this rock I will build my church'. A future work.

Therefore, it is incorrect (and unScriptural) to contend that Christ's church did not exist until the Holy Spirit came upon those who were gathered in the upper room.

The giving of the Spirit in forming this new man was not possible until the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

There's no basis for such a claim.

(Acts 2), the coming of the Spirit, is the beginning of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Lees

That's your theory, not what we find in Acts 2.

That aside, here's an article on the subject that explains the issue well--

Is Pentecost "The Birthday of the Church"? (Heidelberg Catechism, Q54) - Gary Neal Hansen -

garynealhansen.com

 

[brightfame52]

lees

But, the Church was unknown in the Old Testament. Just as it was unknown in most of the Gospels. The Church was not being built yet. See (Eph. 3:4-6)

The Church existed in the OT and its foundation was the Lord Jesus Christ even then Isa 28:16


Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

1 Cor 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Yes Christ did promise to build His Church Matt 16 however He was the foundation, the Son of the living God, and to build His Church means to build upon it, not to start it from scratch

The word build in Matt 16:18 is the greek word oy-kod-om-eh'-o and means:

1. to restore by building, to rebuild, repair

God began to build, restore, repair the Church when He started calling in the Gentile remnant Acts 15:14-18

14 Simeon[Peter] hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

This is what Rom 11 is about in grafting in the Gentiles in the Olive Tree

Thats how Christ rebuild His Church, its now expanding, being populated with chosen gentiles who will be called by His Name Israel !

 

[Fritz Kobus]

...

God also built the nation Israel. But the nation Israel is not the Church.

My doctrine is from the Dispensational teaching which reflects my views and opinions here.

Lees

"The idea of an Israel-Church distinction, which is a fundamental doctrine of dispensationalism, is built on an interpretive fiction. There is continuity between the covenants. There were Israelite believers prior to, during, and after Jesus’ earthly ministry. They were incorporated into the “great cloud of witnesses” from the Old Covenant age (Heb. 12:1)."
Who Is Defending Classic Dispensationalism Today? - The American Vision

 

[Cassia]

When the bible in Hebrews 12 speaks of coming to the church of the first fruits around which is gathered such a great cloud of witnesses, the prior chapter is to the faithful of the OT who are awaiting a greater city, one not built with human hands but built by God. In fact all of that book of Hebrews points to a greater covenant. But in all His people are gathered to the greatness of the Father and due to the author and finisher of our faith, Jesus.

 

[Cassia]

Sorry didn't realize this was a denomination specific forum thread.

 

[Lees]

Eph 3:10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.
18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Access to the throne of God's grace wasn't available before the accepted propitiation, which is Christ. That which is being built is the unfolding of God's manifold wisdom by the church in front of a great cloud of witnesses. Hebrews 12:22-23 the church of the first fruits refer also to the propitiation accepted by God at the time of accession.

That's a bit of dispensationalism, Judaism, etc etc but all biblical truth according to my understanding.

If I understand you correctly, I think I agree with what you have said.

My point is that the Church of Jesus Christ did not exist until Pentecost. I believe (Heb. 12:22-23) also bears this out. "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than Abel."

Does this not show distinction between the church of the first born and the spirits of just men made perfect?

Lees

 

[Lees]

Sorry didn't realize this was a denomination specific forum thread.

I don't believe it is. I didn't mean for it to be.

Lees

 

[Cassia]

If I understand you correctly, I think I agree with what you have said.

My point is that the Church of Jesus Christ did not exist until Pentecost. I believe (Heb. 12:22-23) also bears this out. "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than Abel."

Does this not show distinction between the church of the first born and the spirits of just men made perfect?

Lees

You may not have read my other posts because I think they point to no distinction in the book of Hebrews. In Jewish history propitiation or first fruit offerings had to be accepted by God before granting grace for the harvest. There was the scarlet thread placed on the first stalks of grain to distinguish so the remnant was identified also in that.

• 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
• 1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

 

[Lees]

You may not have read my other posts because I think they point to no distinction in the book of Hebrews. In Jewish history propitiation or first fruit offerings had to be accepted by God before granting grace for the harvest. There was the scarlet thread placed on them to distinguish so the remnant was identified also in that.

• 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
• 1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

I don't believe I have read any of your other posts.

At this point, I agree with what you're saying in no distinction as far as salvation offered to all and is found only in Christ Jesus.

But, that alone does not have to mean all who are forever to be saved are of the same body of believers. And the distinction between Israel and the Church, I believe, points this out. As well as the believers from Adam to Moses. Would you call those believers Israel?

Lees

 

[Cassia]

I don't believe I have read any of your other posts.

At this point, I agree with what you're saying in no distinction as far as salvation offered to all and is found only in Christ Jesus.

But, that alone does not have to mean all who are forever to be saved are of the same body of believers. And the distinction between Israel and the Church, I believe, points this out. As well as the believers from Adam to Moses. Would you call those believers Israel?

Lees

I would begin with a distinction between Abraham and the nations. And then a distinction between the church and gentiles. But always with a view to becoming one in the Father. Hope that helps. I don't usually post here but this thread caught mu eye. Well, g;night.

 

[Lees]

lees



Hi there, I would disagree with you there. I believe the Church of Christ existed in the OT housed in the nation of Israel, being a remnant according to the election of grace. I believe the good olive tree of Rom 11 sets that forth Rom 11:17,24

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


I disagree, All believers from the beginning of the world belonged to Jesus Christ and His Church, He authored their Faith Heb 12:1-2

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses[Heb 11], let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Look at it like this, Christs Church is composed of the entire household of God, from the beginning Eph 2:19


Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Concerning (Rom. 11:13-25):

Paul is contrasting Jews and Gentiles. Both are branches. Israel is not the root. (11:16). Gentiles are not being grafted into Israel. They are made partakers of the same salvation, the same root.

And, this does not prove any Church of Christ in the Old Testament as this would not have occurred until after Israel's rejection of Christ.

(Heb. 12:1-2) does not prove any Church of Christ in the Old Testament. Jesus is certainly the Author and Finisher of our faith. That faith, in Jesus brings one into His Church. Couldn't occur till after Pentecost.

Being part of the 'household of God' in (Eph. 2:19) doesn't mean the Church is in the Old Testament. It means Gentiles are now part of the household of God in the Church of Christ. Which began at Pentecost.

Lees

 

[Cassia]

Lees may I ask your view on the 144000 as I think that is pinnacle to your belief system?

 

[Lees]

I would begin with a distinction between Abraham and the nations. And then a distinction between the church and gentiles. But always with a view to becoming one in the Father. Hope that helps. I don't usually post here but this thread caught mu eye. Well, g;night.

Yes, because God now would make a distinction between His people and other people. Which means those from Adam to Moses are not Israel.

Distinction between the church and gentiles and Jews would be a right distinction also. (1 Cor. 10:32)

By 'becoming one in the Father' are you speaking of (1 Cor. 15:28)? If so, I agree.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Lees may I ask your view on the 144000 as I think that is pinnacle to your belief system?

Yes. I believe they are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel listed in (Rev. 7:4-8)

Lees