Why is this diversity not worrying Christians?

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The topic of discussion is constituted by the questions from the following TikTok video:

TikTok - Make Your Day

Why is it ok for so many people who call themselves Christians to believe such wildly different things? It's like there's no base that we all stand on, it's like every Christian's belief system is as unique as their own personality. It's like we all crafter a version of God and a version of the Gospel in our own image. Why is it ok that we all believe such different things? What even is truth anymore? Does it even matter what is truth? As long as you believe it with your whole heart, is that all that matters? Of course not! So why is every Christian ok with this diversity of Christian denominations?

 

[Albion]

The topic of discussion is constituted by the questions from the following TikTok video:

TikTok - Make Your Day

Why is it ok for so many people who call themselves Christians to believe such wildly different things? It's like there's no base that we all stand on, it's like every Christian's belief system is as unique as their own personality. It's like we all crafter a version of God and a version of the Gospel in our own image. Why is it ok that we all believe such different things? What even is truth anymore? Does it even matter what is truth? As long as you believe it with your whole heart, is that all that matters? Of course not! So why is every Christian ok with this diversity of Christian denominations?

Three answers:

1. We Christians DO NOT, in fact, believe "wildly different things." With few exceptions, the commonalities are more important than the differences.

2. All the other ones of the major world religions (Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.) have different branches as well, but they usually do not get talked about like the different Christian denominations do, in part because many of these are unknown to the average Christian in the Western world.

3. The divisions, such as they are, DO indeed "worry" Christians. It is a fundamental concept of the Christian religion that unity is the ideal...and that is asserted in the New Testament itself. But humans are imperfect, so disagreements are almost inevitable, just as is the case with the other great religions of the world referred to in Point #2 above.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Two answers:

1. We Christians DO NOT, in fact, believe "wildly different things." With few exceptions, the commonalities are more important than the differences.

Except we do. Most denominations believe the facts mentioned in the Bible, but they interpret their meaning in completely different ways. We don't even agree on the reason why Jesus had to be crucified. "For our sins" is a mysterious phrase that means penal substitution for some, Christus Victor for others, recapitulation for others etc.

How can Christians from different denominations who have spent their entire lives in prayer (Orthodox monks, Catholic friars, Protestant pastors, missionaries etc.) be firmly convinced that God confirmed to them that their version of Christianity is the true one? If all versions of Christianity lead to salvation, why wouldn't God confirm this fact to them? Why wouldn't they receive a message like "everyone got the basics, the rest is human tradition that doesn't matter towards salvation"? Only universalists seem to receive this message.

Jews usually agree upon the fact that everyone can obtain salvation regardless of their religion, by following the Noahide laws.

Muslims agree that it all depends on the humans' deeds and on Allah's mercy.

 

[Albion]

Except we do. Most denominations believe the facts mentioned in the Bible, but they interpret their meaning in completely different ways.

I disagree...and please take note of the fact that I did not say there are no differences. I said that they are not as important as those beliefs which Christians of different denominations hold in common.

Whether one is a Roman Catholic or a Lutheran or Orthodox or mainline Protestant, this majority of Christians accepts the deity of Christ, the Oneness of God Almighty, the offer of salvation made possible by Jesus' death and resurrection, the indestructability of the human soul, the concept of the Church, the establishment of His Church, the promise of Christ's return, the sacraments of the Gospel, a common set of morals based upon the Bible, and so much more. Against that, a small minority of churches have broken away from the mainstream and teach something different on, often, one or two of the fundamentals held by historic Christianity.

Jews usually agree upon the fact that everyone can obtain salvation regardless of their religion, by following the Noahide laws.

Muslims agree that it all depends on the humans' deeds and on Allah's mercy.

LOL. It would be easy to say the same thing about Christians.

Pick one nice teaching like 'Jesus is our lord,' and voila, you have the Christian "unity" you want to attribute to these other religions while completely dismissing the fact that those religions do indeed have many different "denominations" or branches that are often bitterly opposed to each other.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I'm talking about agreement on how to do God's will and how to obtain a good afterlife.

And fine, other religions are divided too, but I want to discuss about Christianity here.

I think that the differences between Christian denominational beliefs are so big that one could hardly view these groups as the same religion.

 

[Josiah]

The topic of discussion is constituted by the questions from the following TikTok video:

TikTok - Make Your Day

Why is it ok for so many people who call themselves Christians to believe such wildly different things? It's like there's no base that we all stand on, it's like every Christian's belief system is as unique as their own personality. It's like we all crafter a version of God and a version of the Gospel in our own image. Why is it ok that we all believe such different things? What even is truth anymore? Does it even matter what is truth? As long as you believe it with your whole heart, is that all that matters? Of course not! So why is every Christian ok with this diversity of Christian denominations?

I find the exact opposite to be very remarkable!!!

Christianity is TWO THOUSAND years old! There are over TWO BILLION of them! You'd expect a lot of divergence, a LOT of difference! And yet....

Probably 99% of Christians accept the Apostles and Nicene Creeds (most of them confess one or the other every Sunday!) - and they are remarkable in what they proclaim! Probably 99% of the accept the very same, identical Scriptures (well, there's the Apocrypha but it's not been a divisive issue). Probably 90% of them accept the Trinity and the Divinity of Jesus. That's nothing short of miraculous.

Personally, I "left" the Catholic Church for the Lutheran Church. They certainly differ... but I probably accept 95% of the 2,865 points of the Catholic Catechism and my VERY Catholic uncle states he accepts "everything in the Lutheran Catechism."

I'm always stunned by how much I have in common with my brothers and sisters in Christ.



.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Christianity is TWO THOUSAND years old! There are over TWO BILLION of them! You'd expect a lot of divergence, a LOT of difference!

If the message is given by God, the creator of everything, I would expect very little or even no divergence at all. If human could make their laws (judicial systems) become almost identical throughout most countries on four continents in a matter of a few hundred years, how much more could one expect from God?

 

[tango]

Except we do. Most denominations believe the facts mentioned in the Bible, but they interpret their meaning in completely different ways. We don't even agree on the reason why Jesus had to be crucified. "For our sins" is a mysterious phrase that means penal substitution for some, Christus Victor for others, recapitulation for others etc.

Sometimes differences really don't matter all that much. There's room to believe all sorts of different things, especially when there are so many things that really don't matter.

In some areas Scripture is clear that we must do something (e.g. love God and love each other). In other areas Scripture is clear that we must not do something (e.g. covet our neighbor's stuff, commit adultery). In many areas Scripture is silent. If Scripture doesn't give us a clear instruction one way or the other we can decide for ourselves. Certainly there are some areas where Scripture is technically silent but we can draw a reasonable conclusion from what it does say - to take an obvious example Scripture doesn't say anything at all about watching porn on the internet, but it doesn't take a genius to figure what Jesus said about lust might just apply there. If we're talking about whether it's OK to wear a blue shirt with green pants, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether we take up the offering before or after communion. It doesn't matter whether we have church with a modern band, a traditional pipe organ or no instruments at all.

How can Christians from different denominations who have spent their entire lives in prayer (Orthodox monks, Catholic friars, Protestant pastors, missionaries etc.) be firmly convinced that God confirmed to them that their version of Christianity is the true one? If all versions of Christianity lead to salvation, why wouldn't God confirm this fact to them? Why wouldn't they receive a message like "everyone got the basics, the rest is human tradition that doesn't matter towards salvation"? Only universalists seem to receive this message.

Perhaps "their way is the true way" simply means that their way has the essentials down and their interpretation of the non-essentials doesn't cross any red lines.

Jews usually agree upon the fact that everyone can obtain salvation regardless of their religion, by following the Noahide laws.

Muslims agree that it all depends on the humans' deeds and on Allah's mercy.

Christians agree that it's by the grace of God. What point are you trying to make here?

 

[Lees]

The topic of discussion is constituted by the questions from the following TikTok video:

TikTok - Make Your Day

Why is it ok for so many people who call themselves Christians to believe such wildly different things? It's like there's no base that we all stand on, it's like every Christian's belief system is as unique as their own personality. It's like we all crafter a version of God and a version of the Gospel in our own image. Why is it ok that we all believe such different things? What even is truth anymore? Does it even matter what is truth? As long as you believe it with your whole heart, is that all that matters? Of course not! So why is every Christian ok with this diversity of Christian denominations?

You say...'we all stand on'? You mean you consider yourself 'Christian'? I don't consider you Christian at all. And I have shown that before.

So, you need to quit using the term 'we' when referring to Christians. Because you are not.

Lees

 

[Albion]

I'm talking about agreement on how to do God's will and how to obtain a good afterlife.

Why are you refining (meaning changing) your assertion now? In your first message, you said that the different churches of Christianity don't even stand on the same basis (which is clearly not correct to say). And you also said that it's as though "very Christian's belief system is as unique as their own personality."

Now you are trying to backtrack on both of those claims, so why not simply admit that the argument you picked up from TikTok was mistaken?

And fine, other religions are divided too, but I want to discuss about Christianity here.

Not by making a false comparison. But you could have, if you had so chosen, confined your issue to Christianity. However, that wasn't what the TikTok article did, and it was the impetus for you to create this thread and post your O.P.

I think that the differences between Christian denominational beliefs are so big that one could hardly view these groups as the same religion.

As I recall, you have had a hard time deciding on your own religious views and denominational identity, so I can understand how you made this particular mistake. After you've been set straight about the TikTok stuff, though, there isn't any good reason for you to go on defending it.

 

[Albion]

If the message is given by God, the creator of everything, I would expect very little or even no divergence at all.

That would be very shortsighted.

While God is infallible, we are not. As a result, he communicates to us on the level we occupy.

That means revelation, inspired writings, occasionally miracles. All of that is received by a fallen race (humanity) and perceived through our sense organs. OF COURSE, there are going to be misperceptions made by at least some of us; it's not as though God waves his proverbial hand and the fall of Adam and Eve is rescinded.

 

[Josiah]

If the message is given by God, the creator of everything, I would expect very little or even no divergence at all. If human could make their laws (judicial systems) become almost identical throughout most countries on four continents in a matter of a few hundred years, how much more could one expect from God?

1. God giving one message doesn't mean all humans will hear it exactly the same (we don't anything else, why that?).

2. What humans believe doesn't necessarily come from God. Sometimes PEOPLE ask questions and then PEOPLE answer their own questions. And do so differently.

3. I think the dogmas of the world's 2.2 BILLION Christians for some TWO THOUSAND years is a lot more the same than the laws and their jurisprudence over all the world for the past 2000 years.

Again, what is STUNNING is not the (often minor) things that 99% of Christians disagree on (often their own answers to their own questions), what is STUNNING is how GREAT is the corpus of dogmas we agree upon.... The Apostle's Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Divinity of Christ, even the content of our Scripture. While we (perhaps unfortunately) focus on the few thing that divide the 2.2 billion of us over 2000 years, the reality is we vastly agree - and have for 2000 years.



.

 

[atpollard]

I'm talking about agreement on how to do God's will and how to obtain a good afterlife.

And fine, other religions are divided too, but I want to discuss about Christianity here.

I think that the differences between Christian denominational beliefs are so big that one could hardly view these groups as the same religion.

So you have stated.
Like has already been told to you, I also, respectfully, disagree.

On what basis is a Roman Catholic saved (gains eternal life)?

• The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

On what basis is an Eastern Orthodox saved (gains eternal life)?

• The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

On what basis is a Lutheran saved (gains eternal life)?

• The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

On what basis is a Presbyterian saved (gains eternal life)?

• The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

On what basis is an Anglican saved (gains eternal life)?

• The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

On what basis is a Methodist saved (gains eternal life)?

• The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

On what basis is a Baptist saved (gains eternal life)?

• The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

To quote the motto of my Moravian Brothers: “unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, charity in all things”
Why are you so determined to die on a hill of non-essentials?

 

[Fritz Kobus]

"For our sins" is a mysterious phrase that means penal substitution for some, Christus Victor for others, recapitulation for others etc.

If we look up these theories of atonement we will find that they do not follow from the Bible, and your list for some reason does not include the correct answer. However, while theories of how Jesus' death paid for our sins vary wildly, as atpollard puts it very nicely above, we all believe that Jesus' death does indeed save us.

As to why these theories vary so wildly, I think the answer is twofold:
1. Lack of Bible knowledge by some.
2. Forcing human ideas onto God's Word.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

So you have stated.
Like has already been told to you, I also, respectfully, disagree.

On what basis is a Roman Catholic saved (gains eternal life)?

• The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

+ obedience

On what basis is an Eastern Orthodox saved (gains eternal life)?

• The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

+ obedience

To quote the motto of my Moravian Brothers: “unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, charity in all things”
Why are you so determined to die on a hill of non-essentials?

I consider essentials some of the things you consider non-essentials. And that is because they influence my view of God, and my view of God influences my feelings towards Him. Perhaps it shouldn't, but that's just how I experience reality at the present time.

Penal substitution: A God Who is unable to forgive sin and who views justice as having to punish is not a God I am able to love (at the present time). A God Who has to send someone to be punished just so He can pour His wrath on someone doesn't seem like a reasonable being.

Other atonement theory: A God Who views us as sick children infected with sin and comes down to give us the cure by mixing His divinity with our nature and defeating death in order to heal us, now that is a God I'd enjoy learning more about.

The reason for an event makes all the difference. The intentions of an action makes all the difference.

 

[Albion]

+ obedience


+ obedience

I consider essentials some of the things you consider non-essentials.

Well then, what's necessary is for us to bring clarity to your concerns. It's not that Christianity actually is so divided, as I've been trying to get across to you, but just that you have imagined the existence of a problem when thinking about Christianity.

At the same time, you think that all the other great religions of the world don't experience the alleged weaknesses you described to us--that they do not have separate branches and serious doctrinal disputes when in fact they do.

And then there's the additional issue which you explained in your post above. I'm referring to the fact that you are trying to fashion your own personal version of Christianity, to make Christianity fit your own religious ideas. That's quite a different matter from the claim that you started us off with in your Original Post.

 

[atpollard]

+ obedience


+ obedience

I consider essentials some of the things you consider non-essentials. And that is because they influence my view of God, and my view of God influences my feelings towards Him. Perhaps it shouldn't, but that's just how I experience reality at the present time.

Penal substitution: A God Who is unable to forgive sin and who views justice as having to punish is not a God I am able to love (at the present time). A God Who has to send someone to be punished just so He can pour His wrath on someone doesn't seem like a reasonable being.

Other atonement theory: A God Who views us as sick children infected with sin and comes down to give us the cure by mixing His divinity with our nature and defeating death in order to heal us, now that is a God I'd enjoy learning more about.

The reason for an event makes all the difference. The intentions of an action makes all the difference.

The REALITY that the death and resurrection of Christ saves us (gives us eternal life) is acknowledged by all Bible believing Christians. (To deny that truth is to deny the message of hope delivered by God throughout his word from Genesis to Revelation).

HOW does it save is? HOW is our sin forgiven? HOW is our heart exchanged? HOW are we made new creations? To fully KNOW the answer to WHY and HOW is to know the mind of God. Such information is not clearly illuminated within God’s word. God has given us brief glimpses to small pieces of HIS OMNISCIENT TRUTH, but only small glimpses. From these glimpses, men have speculated. Striven with loving fervor to connect the dots that refuse to perfectly connect for most of us.

PENAL SUBSTITUTION is just one human attempt to connect the dots and fill in the missing pieces. However, even that is not a theory that speculates as you have described it. You said:

A God Who is unable to forgive sin and who views justice as having to punish is not a God I am able to love (at the present time). A God Who has to send someone to be punished just so He can pour His wrath on someone doesn't seem like a reasonable being.​

First, God is not “unable to forgive sin” … that we are forgiven, and God did so while we were still dead in our sins (Ephesians 2: 1-10) proves that God most certainly CAN and DOES forgive sin.

God has written that “the wages of sin is death”, did God lie or is there a “wage” that has been earned? It is the Bible, not men, that describes Christ as the “PROPITIATION” for our sin. Do you know what the word “propitiation” means? So death and wrath and judgement and our sin are all linked together in the word of God and not merely the imagination of men. The details of HOW belong to God, but men can speculate. Our (men’s) speculations are just that … speculations.

You say “is not a God I am able to love (at the present time)”. Honest, but irrelevant. God is not obligated to obtain YOUR or MY approval for WHY and HOW God chooses to do things. As Corrie Ten Boon said: “God does as He pleases, and He does it right well”.

God never had “to send someone to be punished just so He can pour His wrath on someone”. Jesus was God Incarnate and stated that NOBODY took his life, it was His to lay down and it was His to take back up again. So GOD chose to become the Lamb, the sin offering, to be slain, out of a motivation of LOVE rather than ANGER. If God needed to punish sin (a giant IF and the premise behind the Penal Substitution theory of WHY), it was because of HIS Holiness and HIS Justice that could not be rejected without God rejecting who HE IS. NOBODY that studies it seriously believes that “anger and hate” were God’s primary motivations.

[and I am not really even a fan of Penal Substitution, I just think that people should reject teachings for what they honestly teach.]

As an aside, there is a term for creating a god that meets YOUR criteria for what a god should be and want … idols.

 

[tango]

I consider essentials some of the things you consider non-essentials. And that is because they influence my view of God, and my view of God influences my feelings towards Him. Perhaps it shouldn't, but that's just how I experience reality at the present time.

Penal substitution: A God Who is unable to forgive sin and who views justice as having to punish is not a God I am able to love (at the present time). A God Who has to send someone to be punished just so He can pour His wrath on someone doesn't seem like a reasonable being.

What is God supposed to do except punish sin?

Other atonement theory: A God Who views us as sick children infected with sin and comes down to give us the cure by mixing His divinity with our nature and defeating death in order to heal us, now that is a God I'd enjoy learning more about.

What difference does it make?

Your first example shows God sending someone to bear the punishment so we don't have to. The second one shows God sending someone to heal us so that we don't have to be punished. The end result is the same - we don't have to be punished.

The reason for an event makes all the difference. The intentions of an action makes all the difference.

They can make a difference from some perspectives but maybe not from other perspectives.

If I'm struggling to pay off my mortgage and a wealthy benefactor clears the entire balance, from my perspective a huge debt has been lifted from my shoulders. Whether that wealthy benefactor did it because they really cared about me as an individual, found out it was a way to offset some tax liabilities that worked for them, wanted to gain some benefit over the bank that I didn't understand or just had so much money they picked people at random and changed their lives, makes no difference to me. Frankly in that situation I don't really care why they did it, all that matters is that I don't have to find money to pay the mortgage ever again.

 

[SetFree]

The topic of discussion is constituted by the questions from the following TikTok video:

TikTok - Make Your Day

Why is it ok for so many people who call themselves Christians to believe such wildly different things? It's like there's no base that we all stand on, it's like every Christian's belief system is as unique as their own personality. It's like we all crafter a version of God and a version of the Gospel in our own image. Why is it ok that we all believe such different things? What even is truth anymore? Does it even matter what is truth? As long as you believe it with your whole heart, is that all that matters? Of course not! So why is every Christian ok with this diversity of Christian denominations?

The why of those things should have be learned from the very first Book of The Bible. There is a spiritual war on. So brethren that trust any religious leader that claims to be Christian just because of their walk, talk, and nice dress, and even claimed credentials, are disregarding God's warnings He gave His servants in His Word by not measuring those using His Word.

One of the major events God warned Israel about early on in their history were about the pagan Canaanites. God told Israel to not take of their wives, for they would turn your heart to false gods instead of Him. And because of seven specific nations in the land of Canaan that God commanded Israel to literally destroy, and Israel failed in that, God said He would let those Canaanites dwell among the children of Israel to test Israel with.

Then king David, with wanting to build the City of David, needed qualified craftsman, which did not exist among the children of Israel. So David enlists the help of pagan Sidonians and Canaanites from the king of Tyre. Solomon later does the same thing with the building of the 1st temple in Jerusalem. 1 Kings 9 shows the leftover Canaanites Israel was not able to destroy were still dwelling in Israel as bondservants. Many of them eventually became Temple servants, called Nethinims. Others of them crept into the Levitical priesthood during the Babylon captivity of Judah (see Ezra 2). The situation kept getting worse, as even the scribes of Israel were not true Israelites, but were of the Kenites, a nation that came from the land of Canaan (1 Chronicles 2:55). Ever wonder why the scribes were aligned with the blind Pharisees that wanted Jesus executed? there it is.

Even Lord Jesus revealed the "hireling" that creeps into the Church, per John 10. The hireling preaches as a business, for money, and will run when the wolves creep in and go after the sheep.

Apostle Paul even said in Acts 20 as he was getting ready to depart this world, that he did not cease to warn the Church for 2 years with tears, about wolves who creep in, and even some within the Church that would speak perverse things, drawing disciples after them.

This means we each need to be diligent with staying in God's Word and praying regularly for understanding. And then Measure our teachers per The Word of God to see if they are of God or not.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

How do we know what is God's word and what isn't?