Your religious beliefs

[Albion]

Oh, I don't think I'm irritated. Perplexed is probably more accurate.

But either way I just thought I'd mention it for your benefit and for anyone who is likely to refer to the church in the future. Of course, you could always say "Episcopalian" instead and get by...and I think that's a more difficult word for a lot of folks to both pronounce and write out.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Oh, I don't think I'm irritated. Perplexed is probably more accurate.

But either way I just thought I'd mention it for your benefit and for anyone who is likely to refer to the church in the future. Of course, you could always say "Episcopalian" instead and get by...and I think that's a more difficult word for a lot of folks to both pronounce and write out.

My problem (one of them anyway) was that I felt I could not call the US church Anglican and vice versa.

 

[Castle Church]

The thing to remember about Lutheranism is that Luther only threw out those parts of Catholicism that he believed were contrary to the Bible. All the rest of Catholicism he kept. The Reformed on the other hand, threw it all out, some tossing musical instruments, paintings, statues, etc. The Anabaptist church I have been attending has no stained glass, no alter, no crosses, no pictures, no statues, they sing a cappella, there is no liturgy.

The lack of an official liturgy or book of liturgies derived from the Roman or Eastern church does not mean there is no liturgy. Except for services that are spontaneous, like some Quaker meetings are, a liturgy inevitably develops. If you consider it, I am sure that your church service is very similar to other Anabaptist or even other denominational services such as the Churches of Christ.

 

[Albion]

My problem (one of them anyway) was that I felt I could not call the US church Anglican and vice versa.

Ahh. Well, Anglican is something of a generic term. It can be applied to the Church of England in particular, but it's also accurate as a term of reference for any of the many other churches in the world that have the same heritage, etc. , both in the USA and elsewhere.

Episcopal is the name chosen as an alternative in a few nations, mainly the ones that in the past didn't want to be thought of as part of something English. Not surprisingly, that would mainly be the Anglican churches in the USA and Scotland.

"Episcopal" of course means "run by bishops" so that word makes sense if the organization wanted to distinguish itself--by its name--from almost every other Protestant church body.

So, with reference to the American situation, you'd be right to say that "The Episcopal Church is an Anglican church."

 

[Albion]

The lack of an official liturgy or book of liturgies derived from the Roman or Eastern church does not mean there is no liturgy.

No, but they all do have such a book and follow the historic liturgy fairly faithfully.

The Anabaptist worship services and those of most other Protestant churches, on the other hand, bear very little similarity to the structure found in the historic worship service of the Western churches, mainly meaning the Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran and, perhaps also, the Methodist churches.

All others which have given up the historic format or else retain only the barest hints of it, so they are said to be non-liturgical. That's the case, even if there is some format of prayer, praise, and etc. that is followed there during worship there instead of having a completely spontaneous service or one that is unique to them.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Interesting is that Beethoven was nominally Catholic. He wrote a great mass, The Missa Solemnis (beautiful work, well worth a watch). The words that are sung (in the English translation) look to me like they came directly out of the 1940s Lutheran Hymnal.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

So, with reference to the American situation, you'd be right to say that "The Episcopal Church is an Anglican church."

So, is the Episcopal Church independent from the Anglican Church, and further are there various different groupings such as we find in Lutheranism, ranging from extremely liberal to extremely conservative. When I was in college (1980s) I visited an Episcopal congregation on campus and the pastor told me the Bible is no more inspired than the works of Shakespeare. I never went back there.

 

[Albion]

So, is the Episcopal Church independent from the Anglican Church,

Yes, it is, and has been so since the American Revolution.

and further are there various different groupings such as we find in Lutheranism, ranging from extremely liberal to extremely conservative.

Yes. In "The Episcopal Church" there are some conservatives, but the church as a whole is overwhelmingly in the liberal column these days and has been so since about the time you were in college. But that's not the case with the other Anglican churches in the USA..

Since you made the comparison to American Lutheranism, you could look at it this way--

The ELCA is very liberal. The LC-MS and WELS are generally conservative. So when speaking of the profile of American Lutheranism, it's helpful to keep in mind that the different church bodies have their own characteristics.

So also with Anglicanism in the USA. The Episcopal Church is liberal but the Anglican Catholic Church, the Anglican Church in North America, the Reformed Episcopal Church, and the other Anglican bodies (all of which separated from the Episcopal Church at one time or another for doctrinal reasons) are moderately or firmly conservative.

 

[Josiah]

My problem (one of them anyway) was that I felt I could not call the US church Anglican and vice versa.

Years ago, my parents were good friends with a couple who were members and active at the local Episcopal Church. But they were dismayed by how liberal the Episcopal Church in America had become... and they became one of several families that tried to change things. But the way the Episcopal Church is set up, the denomination owns the property no matter what the members want, so it turned out these families left and started a new church in town. But they HAD to be a part of some diocese of some Anglican church, under a bishop. Their church (which I think still meets at a facility in a shopping center) is now Something ANGLICAN Church, a part of some Anglican church NOT a part of the USA (some African church, I think)...so they are still under a bishop and still a part of the Anglican Communion - just not the Episcopal Church in America. They and their parish both use the word "Anglican" (old English for English).

As our friend pointed out, like virtually all faith communities, there are different denominations (nearly always separated by how liberal or conservative they are). The Episcopal Church in America is by far the largest in this country, but not all parishes here in the USA belong to that... and not all call themselves "Episcopalian."

As a conservative Lutheran, I view the Episcopal Church here as very liberal (and not shocking it and the ELCA are in fellowship - they are both liberal). I suspect I'd be more in common with the conservative Anglican groups (I understand many of the groups associated with third world countries are such). I rather like the Thirty-Nine Articles.

And yes, Anglican is easier to spell....


Blessings!


Josiah


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[Jason76]

My dad didn't believe as far as I know. My mom seems to be a baby Christian of a sort for much of her life.

 

[Albion]

Jason, this is a "snoopy" question, but you list yourself as a Unitarian and yet your posts sound like they were written by a generally conservative (and concerned) Christian. This is confusing.

 

[1689Dave]

If I were to state clearly my religious beliefs, they would be: I subscribe to the Ecumenical Creeds and the seven ecumenical councils. I come closest to the 1689 London Baptists and their confession. I am Amillennial but reject the physical Institutional Churches' attempts to make the kingdom of God physically under their control. I believe the Sermon on the Mount is a summary of New Testament ethics, apart from practicing, people cannot claim to be genuine believers. The Church consists whenever 2 or more are gathered in Jesus' name. Baptism is only correct in the name of Jesus Christ by the immersion in water of believers. I might add more later.

 

[Faith]

They're Catholic. I'm Lutheran.


"If Catholics think you're Protestant and Protestants think you're Catholic, you're probably Lutheran."



.

My parents are gone, but both were Catholic. I’m Lutheran.

 

[Faith]

"If Catholics think you are Protestant and Protestants think you are Catholic, you're probably Lutheran."


It's an old adage I've heard a lot (always from Lutherans, LOL). Lutherans LOOK and SOUND kind of Catholic since a lot of our customs, traditions, and spirituality are very similar to Catholicism. But our doctrine is (of course) the basis of Protestantism, so what we TEACH is conservative, original Protestantism.


This comes from the thread, "What I Like about Lutheranism"....





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My church isn’t much like a Catholic Mass. But we do have an Advent Wreath.

 

[tango]

And if it matters, Anglicanism is not a faith or church that's just closer to Catholicism than Lutheranism, but the Church of England still IS the official Catholic Church in that country by law.

Just a small nitpick here (and it may be a typo) but the Church of England isn't a Catholic (capital C) church. If you meant to say catholic with a lower case c then you'd be right - it is the "official" church, to the extent that such a concept is relevant. The monarch is the head of the Church of England and one of their titles is "Defender of the faith". There was some talk that when the then-Prince Charles became King he would seek to change the title to "Defender of Faith", although I have no idea whether that was because he follows a different faith (I don't think that's the case) or whether he merely sought to be more inclusive and protect the rights of people to follow whatever faith they choose.

The last time the UK crowned a monarch I don't imagine there were very many places of worship in the country that weren't some variety of Christian church.

 

[Albion]

Just a small nitpick here (and it may be a typo) but the Church of England isn't a Catholic (capital C) church.

I can see from that comment that you aren't aware of the facts of this matter. Most people are not. Yes, it is true that the Church of England is the official, legal, "Catholic" Church there, not the Roman Catholic Church.

That is the situation, even though the church is more often called "Anglican" in ordinary conversation. The Church of Rome and other denominations of course exist and function, but that's beside the point.

If you meant to say catholic with a lower case, then you'd be right - it is the "official" church, to the extent that such a concept is relevant.

No, I meant exactly what I wrote--which is that it's the Catholic church in law, not just that it's the Established Church (which I think is what your comment had in mind).

And then there is also the use of the word catholic to refer to a certain profile of religious doctrine and practice. The Church of England can make that claim about itself about as well as any church body other than the RCC and the Eastern Christian Churches, and sometimes does so.

Many Anglicans consider themselves to be both catholic and protestant; and the United Nations and many academicians and researchers simply put Anglicanism into its own category. But none of that refers to your basic complaint.

 

[tango]

I can see from that comment that you aren't aware of the facts of this matter. Most people are not. Yes, it is true that the Church of England is the official, legal, "Catholic" Church there, not the Roman Catholic Church.

Curious, it looks like there are further uses of the word I hadn't come across before. Apparently Catholic (capital C) can also be used to refer to things "pertaining to the Western church". On that basis it seems just about any church could call itself Catholic.

 

[Albion]

Curious, it looks like there are further uses of the word I hadn't come across before. Apparently Catholic (capital C) can also be used to refer to things "pertaining to the Western church". On that basis it seems just about any church could call itself Catholic.

Probably. And then there are others that do have the word itself as part of their official names, such as the Old Catholic Churches, the Liberal Catholic Church, and the Philippine National Catholic Church (all of which do have beliefs similar to the RCC except for the Pope).

But I'd guess that the usage you are referring to here--using the word to mean "Western Church"--is one of the least common. Mostly it's just "Western" or "Latin."