Your religious beliefs

[Jazzy]

Are your religious beliefs different from your parents’? How so?

 

[Josiah]

They're Catholic. I'm Lutheran.


"If Catholics think you're Protestant and Protestants think you're Catholic, you're probably Lutheran."



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[Fritz Kobus]

"If Catholics think you're Protestant and Protestants think you're Catholic, you're probably Lutheran."

That's a good one!

 

[Castle Church]

Generally they are pretty much in line. My mother believes in "prosperity doctrine" and I do not, but otherwise our beliefs are pretty similar.

 

[Albion]

That's a good one!

Must be something that Lutherans love to hear and retell.

I mean no offense, but the story doesn't make sense.

 

[Albion]

Different from one or the other parent, yes.

In almost every instance, my religious belief is in accord with one or the other of them. Therefore, I might say I'm either in step with "my parents" (meaning at least one of them) or always at odds with "them."

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Must be something that Lutherans love to hear and retell.

I mean no offense, but the story doesn't make sense.

Lutherans have a few other ones about themselves, such as "Many are cold but a few are frozen." (take on Mt 22:14)
I was Lutheran for about 35 years so am pretty familiar but hand not seen the one that Josiah posted before. Actually, Josiah's post makes more sense to me after leaving the Lutheran church, where I could see it from the outside.

 

[Josiah]

I mean no offense, but the story doesn't make sense.

"If Catholics think you are Protestant and Protestants think you are Catholic, you're probably Lutheran."


It's an old adage I've heard a lot (always from Lutherans, LOL). Lutherans LOOK and SOUND kind of Catholic since a lot of our customs, traditions, and spirituality are very similar to Catholicism. But our doctrine is (of course) the basis of Protestantism, so what we TEACH is conservative, original Protestantism.


This comes from the thread, "What I Like about Lutheranism"....

4. Reform - not Revolt. Tradition - not Reinvention.

The Lutheran Reformation was a conservative one. While the polemics became increasingly horrible (on all sides) as the Reformation developed, Luther respected Christianity, he held the Early Church Fathers in high esteem, he honored and submitted to the Seven Ecumenical Councils and the ancient Ecumenical Creeds.... he was a student of Christian history and stated he would gladly submit all he believed to an Ecumenical Council (although he knew such a Council was sadly impossible). Luther saw a few things that needed REFORM or correction (many of which most Catholics ALSO thought needed correction). But he had no desire to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater, to throw away 1500 years of faith, to reinvent the wheel. What NEEDED correction (to bring back in line with Scripture and faith) should be.... what MORAL sins needed to be corrected (read about the popes of that day?) should be. But MUCH of what was believed was true and good and sound.... and much of what was practiced was good. Much the same could be said of the Anglican (English) Reformation. These are sometimes called the "Conservative" or "First Wave" or "Magisterial" REFORMATION But then came Zwingli and the Anabaptists movements - they were rebellions, revolutions, reinventions, repudiations of 1500 years of Christianity (although in truth they kept a lot more than they cared to admit). As I read Scripture (including my name sake in the OT), I see that REFORM is often needed as error and corruption can creep into the community of faith, but I reject the radical movements such as Zwinglis, the Anabaptists and the various Reconstructionists movements. Lutherans kept what was good.... reformed what was needed.... and tossed out only what was clearly unbiblical or undermined the Gospel.

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[Albion]

"If Catholics think you are Protestant and Protestants think you are Catholic, you're probably Lutheran."


It's an old adage I've heard a lot (always from Lutherans, LOL).

That's interesting.

Lutherans LOOK and SOUND kind of Catholic since a lot of our customs, traditions, and spirituality are very similar to Catholicism. But our doctrine is (of course) the basis of Protestantism, so what we TEACH is conservative, original Protestantism.

...and that's the point. Lutherans invented Protestantism and are Protestant in every respect EXCEPT, perhaps, for the fact that they retained much of the external characteristics of the Roman Church--the liturgy, church calendar, vestments, and so on. So to say that Lutherans could actually be mistaken for Catholics would be to focus on the "look" but not the belief system. That would be ridiculous.

And then there is the obvious alternative. Anglicans are also said to be "like the Catholics" and they actually are that. But the saying we are discussing doesn't allow for several different denominations to be mistaken for Catholicism equally, but just one. That reality is built into the comment you quoted and highlighted.

And if it matters, Anglicanism is not a faith or church that's just closer to Catholicism than Lutheranism, but the Church of England still IS the official Catholic Church in that country by law.

The "thing" is, though, that Anglicans, by and large, aren't flattered to be thought of as nearly a clone of the Catholic church! Conversely, I know a number of Lutherans myself who are downright titillated by the thought that Lutherans might be mistaken for Roman Catholics by anyone.

 

[Josiah]

I know a number of Lutherans myself who are downright titillated by the thought that Lutherans might be mistaken for Roman Catholics by anyone.

Not "titillated" rather humored (but not offended).


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[Albion]

Not "titillated" rather humored (but not offended).


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As I said, I was referring to Lutherans I know personally and who have commented on the idea that is reflected in the quote we're discussing here.

One pastor, in fact, asked his people (in my presence) if it wouldn't be a good idea for all of them to begin referring to themselves as "Lutheran Catholics."

As always is the case, though, almost nothing like this is going to be true of all the members of whatever group we might choose to discuss, so we're left to try for what's generally true of that membership. As for the joke (or whatever it is) that we've been focusing on, I do agree with you that it's more than likely that the majority of Lutherans are humored by the notion than titillated.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

The thing to remember about Lutheranism is that Luther only threw out those parts of Catholicism that he believed were contrary to the Bible. All the rest of Catholicism he kept. The Reformed on the other hand, threw it all out, some tossing musical instruments, paintings, statues, etc. The Anabaptist church I have been attending has no stained glass, no alter, no crosses, no pictures, no statues, they sing a cappella, there is no liturgy.

 

[Albion]

The thing to remember about Lutheranism is that Luther only threw out those parts of Catholicism that he believed were contrary to the Bible. All the rest of Catholicism he kept.

That would be what most Protestants of any denomination would say was their own church's approach.

 

[Josiah]

...and that's the point. Lutherans invented Protestantism and are Protestant in every respect EXCEPT, perhaps, for the fact that they retained much of the external characteristics of the Roman Church--the liturgy, church calendar, vestments, and so on. So to say that Lutherans could actually be mistaken for Catholics would be to focus on the "look" but not the belief system. That would be ridiculous.

@Albion


Not to labor a point, but YES - Protestants thinking Lutherans are "Catholics" (or maybe "Catholic Light") would be primarily because of "externals" as you rightly point out (same could be true of Anglicans/Episcopalians), We "look" pretty Catholic.


But perhaps it's not limited to that. Consider just a few examples....

+ The Lutheran view of the Sacraments. Lutherans passionately retaining "Real Presence." Lutherans stressing Baptism including that it is a "Means of Grace." The emphasis on the importance and blessings in each. Our view of both Sacraments is definitely closer to Catholicism than generally in Protestantism.

+ Lutherans passionate focus on church history, Early Church Fathers, Ecumenical Councils, Tradition. Luther quoted from such far, far more than say Calvin and especially more than the Anabaptists and today's "Evangelicals."

+ Lutheran view of Mary. Although declined of late, for a lot of Protestants, anything said of Mary is "Catholic." While Lutherans do not embrace most of the Catholic Marian Dogmas, they may refer to Mary as "Our Lady" and "Chief of Saints" and "Mother of God." And may hold she remained a virgin all her life. There is a Marian devotion entirely lacking in Protestantism. Although again, this had declined during the 20th Century.


But again, I agree with you: When Protestants look at Lutherans, I think their opinion is largely based on EXTERNALS (you listed some examples).

I know a number of Lutherans myself who are downright titillated by the thought that Lutherans might be mistaken for Roman Catholics by anyone.

I've "met" a few of those online (never in person). Even Lutherans who insist we are "Catholic" (big "C") which is absolutely absurd and yeah suggests your point.

But perhaps unlike Anglicans, Lutherans I think aren't offended by the comparison to Catholicism. We don't view the Reformation as a "break" but a continuation (tragic the Pope kicked us out of his denomination but Jesus didn't kick us out of the church catholic - you understand the point). Lutherans don't see themselves as something begun in 1517 but in 33 AD... denominations had spit before (the biggest to date in 1054). The RCC is our "parent" but we are of the same family. I think for most of Protestantism, there is a different milieu.


Again, I'm not arguing your point. It's perfectly valid. And I apologize for the diversion of the thread.

What I Like About Lutheranism

The following is not at all meant to be all-inclusive or in any particular order.... 1. Humility.... mystery.... respect. In Lutheranism, there is a deep respect for what God says and a cooresponding humility in what we theorize. Great attention is given to what God said (the very...

www.christianityhaven.com

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[Albion]

Not to labor a point, but YES - Protestants thinking Lutherans are "Catholics" (or maybe "Catholic Light") would be primarily because of "externals" as you rightly point out (same could be true of Anglicans/Episcopalians), We "look" pretty Catholic.

Let's concede that point, although I don't think myself that the comparison is as strong as you must.

The more important point, which I made before, is that the suggestion that it's Lutherans who automatically fill this role, and no one else, is what's most curious. But while there is a real point here, in the end we'd be arguing over a little joke (!) and probably is nothing that's worth all of this.

But perhaps it's not limited to that. Consider just a few examples....

+ The Lutheran view of the Sacraments. Lutherans passionately retaining "Real Presence."

Do you imagine that Anglicans do not?

Lutherans stressing Baptism including that it is a "Means of Grace."

Again.

The emphasis on the importance and blessings in each. Our view of both Sacraments is definitely closer to Catholicism than generally in Protestantism.

Once again, that's agreed to, but it's not the point that I mentioned in my earlier posts.

+ Lutherans passionate focus on church history, Early Church Fathers, Ecumenical Councils, Tradition.

You used "focus" to describe the matter. The Lutheran church did not exist as institutions or organizations prior to the 1520s, however.

Luther quoted from such far, far more than say Calvin and especially more than the Anabaptists and today's "Evangelicals."

But almost every Protestant of any denomination is going to look tradition-oriented if the alternative is the Anabaptists!

But again, I agree with you: When Protestants look at Lutherans, I think their opinion is largely based on EXTERNALS (you listed some examples).

I've "met" a few of those online (never in person). Even Lutherans who insist we are "Catholic" (big "C") which is absolutely absurd and yeah suggests your point.

But perhaps unlike Anglicans, Lutherans I think aren't offended by the comparison to Catholicism.

I agree. They seem flattered by it and want to think of themselves that way, which is not typical of Anglicans.

Lutherans don't see themselves as something begun in 1517 but in 33 AD...

They may do that (and I know that they often do), but there isn't actually institutional continuity.

Again, I'm not arguing your point. It's perfectly valid. And I apologize for the diversion of the thread.

Heck no. Discussion is what we're here for, and sometimes even those members whose views align on most matters are going to disagree on SOMETHING, aren't they?
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[Fritz Kobus]

I have never attended an Episcopalian service. Are they not the U.S. version of the Angelican Church?

I am under the impression that Episcopalian (and perhaps also Angelican) are Catholic in appearance and Reformed in doctrine, whereas, Lutherans are Catholic in appearance but Lutheran in doctrine.

 

[Albion]

I have never attended an Episcopalian service. Are they not the U.S. version of the Angelican Church?

It's "Anglican," not "Angelican." You know, as in Angle (or Anglo) land, from which we get the word "England."

Yes, The Episcopal Church is the largest of the Anglican churches in the USA.

I am under the impression that Episcopalian (and perhaps also Angelican) are Catholic in appearance and Reformed in doctrine, whereas, Lutherans are Catholic in appearance but Lutheran in doctrine.

That's a view that's sometimes advanced, yes. However, it's not that simple. Anglicanism is, by its nature, broad-based and allows different views so long as they deal with lesser matters and do not contradict essential doctrines. Lutherans often appear to be more hardnosed, demanding absolute unity on every last article of belief.

That said, it would be wrong to think that Anglicans/Episcopalians are Reformed in the Calvinist sense except for the appearances.

If we consider the appearances, they're truer to the Catholic way in Anglican churches than is the case with Lutherans, even allowing that these are the two denominations that come to mind most readily when someone asks about Protestants who are more like Catholics than other Protestants are.

The Anglican view of the sacraments is different from the Reformed, both in number and meaning, the governance of the churches is different (as the name "Episcopal" suggests), the worship services and hymnology are much more like the historic Catholic style, and then too the history of the Anglican churches is as old as that of the Roman Catholic Church (unlike that of the Lutheran churches).

There is more, of course, but feel free to ask for clarifications or additional info if you want to.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

It's "Anglican," not "Angelican." You know, as in Angle (or Anglo) land, from which we get the word "England."

Yes, The Episcopal Church is the largest of the Anglican churches in the USA.

That's a view that's sometimes advanced, yes. However, it's not that simple. Anglicanism is, by its nature, broad-based and allows different views so long as they deal with lesser matters and do not contradict essential doctrines. Lutherans often appear to be more hardnosed, demanding absolute unity on every last article of belief.

That said, it would be wrong to think that Anglicans/Episcopalians are Reformed in the Calvinist sense except for the appearances.

If we consider the appearances, they're truer to the Catholic way in Anglican churches than is the case with Lutherans, even allowing that these are the two denominations that come to mind most readily when someone asks about Protestants who are more like Catholics than other Protestants are.

The Anglican view of the sacraments is different from the Reformed, both in number and meaning, the governance of the churches is different (as the name "Episcopal" suggests), the worship services and hymnology are much more like the historic Catholic style, and then too the history of the Anglican churches is as old as that of the Roman Catholic Church (unlike that of the Lutheran churches).

There is more, of course, but feel free to ask for clarifications or additional info if you want to.

Well there is my bad spelling. Interesting that Anglicanism is more open to diverse views on the lesser matters.

I think I learned that Anglicanism is reformed from Lutheran sources. They pretty much view all other churches as either Catholic or Reformed, so Reformed in the broadest sense. In fact, one hard core Lutheran pastor wrote a book titled, Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant. While reformed is not in the title, it goes with the general category Protestant. They apparently do not consider themselves to be Protestant.

The problem with Lutheranism (or maybe I should say the thing about, since it does not seem to be a problem for Lutherans) is exactly what you say, Lutheranism appears hard nosed, at least the conservative Lutherans do (Wisconsin Synod, for example). I think this is a result of the Lutherans having hammered out each and every possible doctrine so that there is little area left for different views.

 

[Albion]

Well there is my bad spelling. Interesting that Anglicanism is more open to diverse views on the lesser matters.

Hi, Fritz.

If it was but a misspelling, I apologize for mentioning it. However, I run into this often. It's common for people to think that the name of the church is Angelican, as though it's based on something to do with angels, and that it's pronounced like An-jell-i-can.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Hi, Fritz.

If it was but a misspelling, I apologize for mentioning it. However, I run into this often. It's common for people to think that the name of the church is Angelican, as though it's based on something to do with angels, and that it's pronounced like An-jell-i-can.

Oh no problem. If you hadn't mentioned it, I might have kept doing it for who knows how long. Your post was taken as an educational post, and I can see where you would have irritation with many people doing the same thing. Very understandable. Problem for me is neither name for your church (England or U.S.) is easy to spell (of course I never made an effort to learn the correct spelling--lazy me).