Sale of 43 Catholic church properties to settle abuse victims claims

[Jazzy]

Article link: Court approves sale of 42 Catholic church properties to settle abuse victims claims

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Thoughts?

 

[Albion]

Not really a new phenomenon, is it? All sorts of Catholic Church properties have been sold in recent years in order to meet judgments resulting from sexual abuse committed by the Church's clergy or staff. This one does appear to involve quite a large number of properties, however.

 

[Josiah]

LONG AGO, I posted here my reactions and opinions regarding the monsters who abused children... and how that was at times covered up by employers or organizations. Yup, monsters. Horrible, disgusting things. Made worse by not taking responsibility and avoiding accountability.

THAT SAID, the only winners are the lawyers. Money doesn't repair the damage to these boys (and sometimes girls). And these organizations were often non-profits serving our community, so the huge looses to the BSA, churches, etc. actually ends up hurting children and others - still more. Near me, the Catholic Church had to sell over 40 acres of prime real estate that had been donated to the diocese for a k-12 school, as well as a youth center. The diocese had already spent millions on plans and permits. But they had to sell it to help come up with the money to pay the law suits (and lawyers). There are now expensive condos on that site. Kids loose. The community looses.

THAT SAID, I think some good HAS come from this horrible thing. Nearly all churches, youth organizations, etc. have developed policies and practices that make it far less likely that history will repeat itself... even organizations that did NOT suffer lawsuits. I think it's very likely we'll have fewer cases of this monstrous activity in the future. Good can come from bad.


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[Joshua1Eight]

People love to point out how these evil and monstrous acts are carried out by Catholic priests. But I’ve heard stories of these kinds of things happening in Protestant churches, Mormon cult communities, Jewish synagogues, and also Islamic Mosques. And don’t forget what the tribe of Benjamin did to a poor man’s concubine in the book of Judges. We’re not going to condemn Paul for being a Benjamite. The Corinthians had a man there who had his father’s wife. I doubt we’d condemn every believer in the city of Corinth because of the sin of a few.

Sin is sin. And every human being has a sinful flesh. And that sin creeps its way into many denominations and many religious groups and houses of worship. But in America, A.K.A. Protestant-Land, the spotlight is on those in the Catholic Church. Even though there’s that Protestant church leader Ted Haggard who was the senior pastor of the New Life megachurch in Colorado Springs who was caught in a hotel with a male prostitute and illegal drugs. Oh, but let’s focus on the Catholics who are committing horrendous acts of evil. Pay no attention to other groups who do similar things.

I honestly don’t understand why our leadership doesn’t allow priests to marry. The Levite priests married, as well as most of the disciples. Paul encouraged people to be single, but be said it’s better to marry than to burn with lust. He said that a bishop can have one wife. I wonder if they were allowed to marry if they wouldn’t be so tempted to violate these children. I don’t know. The whole thing is disgusting and horrible. The leadership should never cover up for them, and they should never be allowed around children and should be cast out of the church just as Paul cast out the immoral brother in Corinthians.

 

[Albion]

People love to point out how these evil and monstrous acts are carried out by Catholic priests. But I’ve heard stories of these kinds of things happening in Protestant churches, Mormon cult communities, Jewish synagogues, and also Islamic Mosques.

That is true. However, it has not been on the scale experienced in the Roman Catholic Church, nor can you minimize the extent of the wrongdoing in her midst by comparing it against the sins of a stray pastor, here or there, who belongs to a different church, or by playing the "everyone likes to target the Catholic Church" card.

In addition, the scandal is not only that sexual abuses did occur, but also that there have been many cover-ups of these wrongs by the Catholic Church's hierarchy. You pointed to that fact yourself.

 

[tango]

I honestly don’t understand why our leadership doesn’t allow priests to marry. The Levite priests married, as well as most of the disciples. Paul encouraged people to be single, but be said it’s better to marry than to burn with lust. He said that a bishop can have one wife. I wonder if they were allowed to marry if they wouldn’t be so tempted to violate these children. I don’t know. The whole thing is disgusting and horrible. The leadership should never cover up for them, and they should never be allowed around children and should be cast out of the church just as Paul cast out the immoral brother in Corinthians.

If an adult man were caught with a prostitute because he was forbidden to marry that would be one thing. But to say that because you can't have a wife you're going to violate a child defies even the wildest semblance of reason. It's not like there aren't multiple other ways to deal with the tensions, if you're really struggling without a wife. And at the end of the day if you're struggling with a prohibition against being married you can always choose a different line of work.

No argument that the church should never cover up. That's a large part of the problem - allegations over decades suggest that on multiple occasions even when a clergyman's position became untenable because of allegations they were simply moved elsewhere rather than removed completely.

 

[Josiah]

People love to point out how these evil and monstrous acts are carried out by Catholic priests. But I’ve heard stories of these kinds of things happening in Protestant churches, Mormon cult communities, Jewish synagogues, and also Islamic Mosques. And don’t forget what the tribe of Benjamin did to a poor man’s concubine in the book of Judges. We’re not going to condemn Paul for being a Benjamite. The Corinthians had a man there who had his father’s wife. I doubt we’d condemn every believer in the city of Corinth because of the sin of a few.

Sin is sin. And every human being has a sinful flesh. And that sin creeps its way into many denominations and many religious groups and houses of worship. But in America, A.K.A. Protestant-Land, the spotlight is on those in the Catholic Church. Even though there’s that Protestant church leader Ted Haggard who was the senior pastor of the New Life megachurch in Colorado Springs who was caught in a hotel with a male prostitute and illegal drugs. Oh, but let’s focus on the Catholics who are committing horrendous acts of evil. Pay no attention to other groups who do similar things.

I honestly don’t understand why our leadership doesn’t allow priests to marry. The Levite priests married, as well as most of the disciples. Paul encouraged people to be single, but be said it’s better to marry than to burn with lust. He said that a bishop can have one wife. I wonder if they were allowed to marry if they wouldn’t be so tempted to violate these children. I don’t know. The whole thing is disgusting and horrible. The leadership should never cover up for them, and they should never be allowed around children and should be cast out of the church just as Paul cast out the immoral brother in Corinthians.

@Joshua1Eight


Some replies...


1. Just because sin is universal does not make it okay....


2. Of course, this monstrous tragedy was not unique to the Roman Catholic Church, there were cases in various youth organizations (including the Boy Scouts, public schools, etc., etc. - really all that involve children. And there were other denominations involved, too (although there more likely to be youth workers than clergy).


3. What caused the focus on the Roman Catholic Church was the cover up. I think what disgusted people was not ONLY that a trusted, respected priest would do much monstrous, horrible things to innocent little Catholic boys BUT that in some cases the bishop covered it up, didn't report it, didn't tell the parents, and perhaps even transferred the priest to a new parish where the monster could find "fresh meat." This is one reason why typically the priest was not sued but the diocese. THIS is what distinguishes the RCC from say the BSA - there were monsters prying on innocent little boys in both, but in the BSA that organization didn't take measures to cover it up and protect the predator. BOTH had inadequate policies in place to better prevent this, BOTH had too little in place about what to do in such cases, but the BSA didn't cover it up and move the predators around. I think THAT'S what horrified the public ( and a LOT of Catholics, including my parents thinking of their two little innocent Catholic boys who adored their pastor) - not just the monsters BUT the denomination that seemed to cover it up and even empower it. In MY opinion, the Catholic Church well deserved the horrible response it got - sad as it is.


4. I disagree that the RCC policy of typically not permitting priests to marry has anything to do with this. There is no evidence that single men are more likely to be sexual predators of boys than married men (I've seen those studies - no correlation at all). And of course, most of these priests were preying on boys, not girls. IF the cases where priests praying on pretty college girls, you might have some evidence but typically it was pedophilia men preying on little boys. And there are a LOT of single clergy in the RCC and the vast, vast majority of them behave themselves. I honestly don't think the celibacy issue has any relation to this tragic chapter.



See post #3


Blessings!


Josiah



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[Joshua1Eight]

That is true. However, it has not been on the scale experienced in the Roman Catholic Church, nor can you minimize the extent of the wrongdoing in her midst by comparing it against the sins of a stray pastor, here or there, who belongs to a different church, or by playing the "everyone likes to target the Catholic Church" card.

In addition, the scandal is not only that sexual abuses did occur, but also that there have been many cover-ups of these wrongs by the Catholic Church's hierarchy. You pointed to that fact yourself.

I’ve heard of Mormon cult leaders violating children, both boys and girls, and covering it up. I’ve heard of Jehovah’s Witness leaders violating children and covering it up. This is not something that is unique to Catholicism.

As to the scale at which it’s happening, how do I know the scale? I don’t. Because I don’t know everyone’s secret sins, especially if they’re covering it up. The scale could be massively bigger than what happens in Catholicism. Or the sins unveiled in Catholicism might just be the tip of the iceberg. I don’t know.

Keep in mind, I utterly condemn the wicked acts of these priests. What they’ve done is absolutely horrendous. But we don’t use the sins of these men as a way of condemning Catholicism and everything Catholics teach, the same way that we don’t use the sins of Protestants to condemn everything Protestants teach.

We wouldn’t use Judas Iscariot’s sin as a way of condemning all of Jesus’ disciples. We wouldn’t use Peter’s weakness and denial as a way of discrediting him as the rock on which Christ would build his church. The devil is always among believers, regardless of what denomination or group they’re affiliated with.

 

[Albion]

I’ve heard of Mormon cult leaders violating children, both boys and girls, and covering it up. I’ve heard of Jehovah’s Witness leaders violating children and covering it up. This is not something that is unique to Catholicism.

There are always exceptions, but it is fundamentally incorrect to try to equate the massive wrongdoing in one organization--the Roman Catholic Church in this case--with scattered events occurring in other church bodies, including statistically inconsequential cults.

You wrote..."I've heard of." Well, you are essentially saying there that, while there has been a huge scandal in one organization affecting thousands and resulting in huge court judgments, you also have "heard of" some events occurring elsewhere that didn't reach anywhere near the proportions described in the Original Post here.

As to the scale at which it’s happening, how do I know the scale?

You could look into it before replying that, in effect, 'everyone does it.'

The Original Post, to which you responded, described a monumental judgment against the institutional Catholic Church, and yet that event concerned just one small part of Canada. Similar judgments have been handed down elsewhere in North America, and literally thousands of victims have come forth. And as for the 'cover-ups' that you and others have mentioned, that's something that has touched numerous bishops and even the Pope himself.

 

[Lees]

You know why the 'world' hates the Christian faith?

It is because we are just as guilty as they are. They know it. And we who are honest know it is true also.

Yet, we are forgiven through Jesus Christ.

That is what the world hates.

Lees

 

[Joshua1Eight]

Sinful human beings are like cats. They poop in the sand and then cover it up. But all will be revealed when the litter box gets cleaned.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sinful human beings are like cats. They poop in the sand and then cover it up. But all will be revealed when the litter box gets cleaned.

One must dread the coming of the great litter box cleaner!

 

[Albion]

Keep in mind, I utterly condemn the wicked acts of these priests. What they’ve done is absolutely horrendous. But we don’t use the sins of these men as a way of condemning Catholicism and everything Catholics teach, the same way that we don’t use the sins of Protestants to condemn everything Protestants teach.

Maybe it's time to recap. Who here did that--the part I've highlighted above in red??

The discussion here has concerned 43 properties having been sold by the Catholic Church in order to pay judgments resulting from sexual abuse claims against the Church.

 

[Bluezone777]

I think the biggest problem people have with their crimes is not that they did them but that the leadership within that church took concerted efforts to conceal and hide the evil in their midst. It's one thing to have evil men amongst you but when you as an leader think the first thing you should do is hide it from being discovered should make anyone who is a member of that organization and not taking part in the evil to start asking questions and reconsider their membership to said organization. A healthy church upon discovery of the evil in their midst(talking about inside the church not outside of it) is to expose and expunge said evil from them. It's clear the Catholic church is not a healthy church body and is not one I would recommend remaining a part of personally.

Does anyone really think a genuine born again Holy Spirit filled believer would not only hide the evil men in their ranks upon discovery of their evil deeds and also be totally comfortable with doing it?

 

[Albion]

I think the biggest problem people have with their crimes is not that they did them but that the leadership within that church took concerted efforts to conceal and hide the evil in their midst. It's one thing to have evil men amongst you but when you as an leader think the first thing you should do is hide it from being discovered should make anyone who is a member of that organization and not taking part in the evil to start asking questions and reconsider their membership to said organization.

I'm sure that many people agree with that observation. And in the case(s) we've been discussing, the cover-ups appear to have been as explosive as the sexual offenses themselves.

Does anyone really think a genuine born again Holy Spirit filled believer would not only hide the evil men in their ranks upon discovery of their evil deeds and also be totally comfortable with doing it?