Why is Tobit wrong for teaching a works salvation?

[Lees]

You think I'm obsessed with the Apocrypha. But I'm not. I've probably been much more obsessed with the 2000 Mules election fraud issue. I've been listening to Dinesh D'Souza's podcast every day. That's what I'm obsessed with at the moment.

Yes, you are obsessed with the Aporcrypha. One has only to see the many topics you start concerning it.

Lees

 

[Bluezone777]

I think there is this idea that God wants your money or even your only son like it was with Abraham but that's not what He really wanted. He asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son not because he wanted the son but in fact wanted his heart and used this request to give Abraham a chance to hand his heart over to God or to his son. He chose to hand it to God and was going to sacrifice his son when God stopped him because He got what he wanted and didn't need Abraham to actually go through with it because He knew he would do it. It is said where your heart is so will your treasure will also be.

In the case with money, people might believe that God wanted money when Jesus asked the rich young ruler to sell everything he had and give it to the poor when the man claimed he followed the law perfectly as he thought he did but that's not the case. What He wanted there was his heart and when the man walked away in tears instead showed who or rather what had his heart which was his money. He would not take his heart from his money and give it to God and walked away instead which showed all his efforts to follow the law were in vain because in the end, God didn't have the only thing he really wanted from him.

Salvation has always been by faith and while works are involved, it is not the works that save you but show both you and God where your heart lies which is the thing that God actually wants from you because without your heart, He cannot have a relationship with you which is the one thing God wants to do is restore the relationship God had with man prior to the fall which is done by faith through Christ because without Christ, God cannot have that relationship with you because His laws demands your eternal punishment and separation from God in hell and He being righteous must carry out the demands of the law. This is why he gave his Son to us as the offering which fulfills the demands of the law and allows God to both restore His relationship with man while fulfilling all the requirements of His law.

As you can see, I used an example from both the new and old testament to show that there was no change and it has always been by faith and not by works from the beginning.

 

[Lanman87]

Exodus 30 says that money makes atonement.

"The rich shall not give more and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when you give an offering to the Lord, to make atonement for yourselves. And you shall take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shall appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of meeting, that it may be a memorial for the children of Israel before the Lord, to make atonement for yourselves.”
-Exodus 30:15-16 (NKJV)

Tobit was a law-observant Israelite in the Old Testament times.

Exodus 30 isn't about almsgiving. It is about a census tax that was given during the census.

11 The Lord said to Moses, 12 “When you take the census of the people of Israel, then each shall give a ransom for his life to the Lord when you number them, that there be no plague among them when you number them. 13 Each one who is numbered in the census shall give this: half a shekel[b] according to the shekel of the sanctuary (the shekel is twenty gerahs),[c] half a shekel as an offering to the Lord. 14 Everyone who is numbered in the census, from twenty years old and upward, shall give the Lord's offering. 15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less, than the half shekel, when you give the Lord's offering to make atonement for your lives. 16 You shall take the atonement money from the people of Israel and shall give it for the service of the tent of meeting, that it may bring the people of Israel to remembrance before the Lord, so as to make atonement for your lives.”

Was Tobit paying advocating the people to pay a census tax that was directed by God to Moses? The purpose of the tax was to provide resources for the "Service of the tent of meeting". This was a specific tax, for a specific purpose, at a specific time. Not a general "almsgiving" that anyone can do at any time.

Why are shekels of silver involved in the trespass offering?

“If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally in regard to the holy things of the Lord, then he shall bring to the Lord as his trespass offering a ram without blemish from the flocks, with your valuation in shekels of silver according to the shekel of the sanctuary, as a trespass offering. And he shall make restitution for the harm that he has done in regard to the holy thing, and shall add one-fifth to it and give it to the priest. So the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.”
-Leviticus 5:15-16

This doesn't command to give money. It commands offer a ram that is worth the shekel value of the sanctuary.

Here is the NLT

15 “If one of you commits a sin by unintentionally defiling the Lord’s sacred property, you must bring a guilt offering to the Lord. The offering must be your own ram with no defects, or you may buy one of equal value with silver, as measured by the weight of the sanctuary shekel.[

 

[NathanH83]

Exodus 30 isn't about almsgiving. It is about a census tax that was given during the census.

11 The Lord said to Moses, 12 “When you take the census of the people of Israel, then each shall give a ransom for his life to the Lord when you number them, that there be no plague among them when you number them. 13 Each one who is numbered in the census shall give this: half a shekel[b] according to the shekel of the sanctuary (the shekel is twenty gerahs),[c] half a shekel as an offering to the Lord. 14 Everyone who is numbered in the census, from twenty years old and upward, shall give the Lord's offering. 15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less, than the half shekel, when you give the Lord's offering to make atonement for your lives. 16 You shall take the atonement money from the people of Israel and shall give it for the service of the tent of meeting, that it may bring the people of Israel to remembrance before the Lord, so as to make atonement for your lives.”

Was Tobit paying advocating the people to pay a census tax that was directed by God to Moses? The purpose of the tax was to provide resources for the "Service of the tent of meeting". This was a specific tax, for a specific purpose, at a specific time. Not a general "almsgiving" that anyone can do at any time.


This doesn't command to give money. It commands offer a ram that is worth the shekel value of the sanctuary.

Here is the NLT

15 “If one of you commits a sin by unintentionally defiling the Lord’s sacred property, you must bring a guilt offering to the Lord. The offering must be your own ram with no defects, or you may buy one of equal value with silver, as measured by the weight of the sanctuary shekel.[

That’s exactly what they did in 2 Maccabees. They gave money to purchase the animals to be sacrificed.

 

[Lanman87]

That’s exactly what they did in 2 Maccabees. They gave money to purchase the animals to be sacrificed.

We aren't talking about 2 Maccabees. We are talking about if "almsgiving purges sin" as Tobit says.

Just because the Jews in Maccabees are following the law doesn't mean that Tobit is right when it says "almsgiving purges sin".

22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Hebrews 9:22

But the Sacrifices of the law aren't sufficient to truly make "perfect"

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Hebrews 10:1

The animal sacrifices temporarily made atonement for sin.

The only sacrifice that could completely purge or remove sins was the Sacrifice of Christ.

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:1-13

And that is why Tobit is wrong. Neither under the old law, which was not sufficient but was a shadow or foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ or under the New Covenant of grace, which is a free gift, does almsgiving ever forgive, purge, or in anyway take away sin.

The only thing that can truly take away sins is Christ and His sacrifice on our behalf. That was true of the Jews under the Old Covenant and Christians under the New Covenant.

 

[NathanH83]

We aren't talking about 2 Maccabees. We are talking about if "almsgiving purges sin" as Tobit says.

Just because the Jews in Maccabees are following the law doesn't mean that Tobit is right when it says "almsgiving purges sin".

22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Hebrews 9:22

But the Sacrifices of the law aren't sufficient to truly make "perfect"

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Hebrews 10:1

The animal sacrifices temporarily made atonement for sin.

The only sacrifice that could completely purge or remove sins was the Sacrifice of Christ.

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:1-13

And that is why Tobit is wrong. Neither under the old law, which was not sufficient but was a shadow or foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ or under the New Covenant of grace, which is a free gift, does almsgiving ever forgive, purge, or in anyway take away sin.

The only thing that can truly take away sins is Christ and His sacrifice on our behalf. That was true of the Jews under the Old Covenant and Christians under the New Covenant.

Why isn’t 1 Peter 4:8 wrong then?
How does love atone for sin?

 

[Lanman87]

Why isn’t 1 Peter 4:8 wrong then?
How does love atone for sin?

1 Peter 4:8 is about our love for each other.

Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. Show hospitality to one another without grumbling.
1 Peter 4:8‭-‬9 ESV

I read this verse in four different translations and none of them use the word "atone". This is not saying that love=atoning sacrifice.


Love covers our sins against one another. When we treat each other with love we are quick to forgive each other and treat each other with respect and kindness.

Love is a huge part of redemption. All three persons of the Trinity have perfect love for each other and when we become adopted "Children of God" we somehow, in some way, become divine participants in the perfect love of God. The most memorized verse of all time tells us that the reason The Father sent His Son is because God so Loved the World. So please don't think I'm downplaying the importance of love.

Love is the reason of redemption, the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and resurrection is the work of redemption, the indwelling Holy Spirit is the power of redemption, and a living faith is the ongoing participation in and consequence of redemption, as we live our life "in Christ".