Why is Tobit wrong for teaching a works salvation?

[NathanH83]

People say that Tobit teaches a works salvation. Then they quote Ephesians which says that we're "saved by faith and not by works lest any man should boast."

However, when Paul said "Not by works" he was talking about the Old Testament Jewish ceremonial laws, like circumcision, dietary laws, abstaining from pork, celebrating New Moon festivals and special sabbaths. Of course Gentile believers are not saved by those works. Abstaining from pork isn't going to save you. Only faith in Christ saves, not the works of the law.

But Tobit was an Israelite who lived in the 700's before the time of Christ. He was law-observant. He went to Jerusalem every Passover and offered animal sacrifices on the altar, as prescribed in the Old Testament. If Tobit is teaching a works salvation, then that's exactly what we would expect from an Old Testament book about a law observant Israelite. Why would we expect anything different?

So what's the big contradiction?

 

[Lanman87]

However, when Paul said "Not by works" he was talking about the Old Testament Jewish ceremonial laws, like circumcision, dietary laws, abstaining from pork, celebrating New Moon festivals and special sabbaths. Of course Gentile believers are not saved by those works. Abstaining from pork isn't going to save you. Only faith in Christ saves, not the works of the law.

I disagree that the works of the Law are only talking about ceremonial laws. The Mosaic Law also contains Moral Laws that must be followed, including the 10 Commandments, Loving God, Loving your neighbor, and various "good works" including treating people well. For example, the works of the law include taking care of the poor and homeless (Duet 15:11, Lev 25:35-36),

When Paul says we are saved by faith apart from works of the law he is saying we are saved by faith, not by

giving to charity (Duet 15:11)
loving a a stranger (Deut 10:19)
giving a poor man what he needs (Deut 15:7)

and so forth.

So while it does contain the ceremonial laws it also contains much more.

I would agree that the works of the law are representative of any works we do to try and earn God's favor.

If Grace is a free gift, then no works can earn it or keep it (Romans 3:24)
If Eternal Life is a free gift, the no works can earn it or keep it (Romans 6:23)
If Salvation is a free gift, then no works can earn it or keep it (Eph 2:8-10)

The minute you have to do something to earn or keep it, it is no longer free.

 

[Lees]

People say that Tobit teaches a works salvation. Then they quote Ephesians which says that we're "saved by faith and not by works lest any man should boast."

However, when Paul said "Not by works" he was talking about the Old Testament Jewish ceremonial laws, like circumcision, dietary laws, abstaining from pork, celebrating New Moon festivals and special sabbaths. Of course Gentile believers are not saved by those works. Abstaining from pork isn't going to save you. Only faith in Christ saves, not the works of the law.

But Tobit was an Israelite who lived in the 700's before the time of Christ. He was law-observant. He went to Jerusalem every Passover and offered animal sacrifices on the altar, as prescribed in the Old Testament. If Tobit is teaching a works salvation, then that's exactly what we would expect from an Old Testament book about a law observant Israelite. Why would we expect anything different?

So what's the big contradiction?

The Old Testament didn't teach a works salvation. Where in the world did you come up with that?

And, what is up with this obsession of yours for the 'Apocrypha'.

Lees

 

[NathanH83]

I disagree that the works of the Law are only talking about ceremonial laws. The Mosaic Law also contains Moral Laws that must be followed, including the 10 Commandments, Loving God, Loving your neighbor, and various "good works" including treating people well. For example, the works of the law include taking care of the poor and homeless (Duet 15:11, Lev 25:35-36),

When Paul says we are saved by faith apart from works of the law he is saying we are saved by faith, not by

giving to charity (Duet 15:11)
loving a a stranger (Deut 10:19)
giving a poor man what he needs (Deut 15:7)

and so forth.

So while it does contain the ceremonial laws it also contains much more.

I would agree that the works of the law are representative of any works we do to try and earn God's favor.

If Grace is a free gift, then no works can earn it or keep it (Romans 3:24)
If Eternal Life is a free gift, the no works can earn it or keep it (Romans 6:23)
If Salvation is a free gift, then no works can earn it or keep it (Eph 2:8-10)

The minute you have to do something to earn or keep it, it is no longer free.

So? Tobit was an Old Testament Israelite. He wanted to keep all the law. What’s so surprising about that?

 

[NathanH83]

The Old Testament didn't teach a works salvation. Where in the world did you come up with that?

And, what is up with this obsession of yours for the 'Apocrypha'.

Lees

When Paul says “not by works” he’s talking about obeying Old Testament law. The Old Testament clearly commands to obey Old Testament law.


“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. But if a man is just And does what is lawful and right; If he has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife, Nor approached a woman during her impurity; If he has not oppressed anyone, But has restored to the debtor his pledge; Has robbed no one by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing; If he has not exacted usury Nor taken any increase, But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity And executed true judgment between man and man; If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully— He is just; He shall surely live!” Says the Lord God.”
-Ezekiel 18:4-9

Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 18:4-9 - New King James Version

“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. But if a man is just And does what is lawful and right; If he has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Lanman87]

So? Tobit was an Old Testament Israelite. He wanted to keep all the law. What’s so surprising about that?

Because no where in the law does it say that "our sins are purged" by almsgiving.

That is not taught in the Law, the Prophets, or in the New Testament.

Sacrifice is always associated with forgiveness of sins in the Mosaic Law (see Lev 4). Whoever wrote Tobit was not advocating keeping the law. His statement of almsgiving being associated to the "purging" of sin is neither part of the law or the teaching of Grace.

 

[Lamb]

Tobit does not decide what the rest of scripture has said otherwise...we are saved by grace through faith. All of us, and since Genesis when God gave the promise of a Savior.

 

[NathanH83]

Tobit does not decide what the rest of scripture has said otherwise...we are saved by grace through faith. All of us, and since Genesis when God gave the promise of a Savior.

Tobit lived in Old Testament times. Can’t condemn him for wanting to follow the law of Moses.

 

[NathanH83]

Because no where in the law does it say that "our sins are purged" by almsgiving.

That is not taught in the Law, the Prophets, or in the New Testament.

Sacrifice is always associated with forgiveness of sins in the Mosaic Law (see Lev 4). Whoever wrote Tobit was not advocating keeping the law. His statement of almsgiving being associated to the "purging" of sin is neither part of the law or the teaching of Grace.

The book of Daniel does.

“Therefore, O king, let my advice be acceptable to you; break off your sins by being righteous, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor. Perhaps there may be a lengthening of your prosperity.”
-Daniel 4:27

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 4:27 - New King James Version

Therefore, O king, let my advice be acceptable to you; break off your sins by being righteous, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor. Perhaps there may be a lengthening of your prosperity.”

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Lanman87]

“Therefore, O king, let my advice be acceptable to you; break off your sins by being righteous, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor. Perhaps there may be a lengthening of your prosperity.”
-Daniel 4:27

Daniel isn't talking about forgiveness of sins but of "lengthening of your prosperity". This is in the context of Daniel interpreting his dream. It isn't about Nebuchadnezzar having his sins forgiven, it is about him having his time as king last longer.

In other words, Daniel is telling the king to straighten up and just maybe God will let you be prosperous longer. At any rate, it didn't work.

28 All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 At the end of twelve months he was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, 30 and the king answered and said, “Is not this great Babylon, which I have built by my mighty power as a royal residence and for the glory of my majesty?” 31 While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, “O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you,

 

[Lees]

When Paul says “not by works” he’s talking about obeying Old Testament law. The Old Testament clearly commands to obey Old Testament law.


“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. But if a man is just And does what is lawful and right; If he has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife, Nor approached a woman during her impurity; If he has not oppressed anyone, But has restored to the debtor his pledge; Has robbed no one by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing; If he has not exacted usury Nor taken any increase, But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity And executed true judgment between man and man; If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully— He is just; He shall surely live!” Says the Lord God.”
-Ezekiel 18:4-9

Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 18:4-9 - New King James Version

“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. But if a man is just And does what is lawful and right; If he has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his...

www.biblegateway.com

Really? When did Paul say that and where? Why is it people here don't like to give the Scripture reference? The Mosaic Law came many years after Abraham.

And it is with Abraham that you see the method God would use for salvation. Faith, not law. (Rom. 4: 2) " For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righeousness."

Paul is addressing (Gen. 15:6). "And he believed in the LORD, and he counted it to him for righteousness".

In other words, the Old Testament is clear that salvation is by faith and not works.

And you didn't answer my question. Why this obsession of yours with the Apocrypha?

Lees

 

[NathanH83]

Daniel isn't talking about forgiveness of sins but of "lengthening of your prosperity". This is in the context of Daniel interpreting his dream. It isn't about Nebuchadnezzar having his sins forgiven, it is about him having his time as king last longer.

In other words, Daniel is telling the king to straighten up and just maybe God will let you be prosperous longer. At any rate, it didn't work.

28 All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 At the end of twelve months he was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, 30 and the king answered and said, “Is not this great Babylon, which I have built by my mighty power as a royal residence and for the glory of my majesty?” 31 While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, “O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you,

Daniel says to break off your sins by being righteous and showing mercy to be poor. Tobit says the same thing. There’s no difference.

 

[atpollard]

So? Tobit was an Old Testament Israelite. He wanted to keep all the law. What’s so surprising about that?

Daniel wanted to keep the laws (to the best of his ability living in exile) and no one criticizes Daniel for keeping the OT dietary law (they praise him for it). Therefore, you might want to consider the possibility that Tobit keeping the law is not what concerns people.

In contrast, Daniel never claimed that God forgave his sins because he obeyed the dietary laws, while Tobit does teach that “alms” will purchase salvation (forgiveness of sin). That is more likely the source of criticism against the writings alleged to be from Tobit (They teach falsely about salvation).

 

[atpollard]

Daniel says to break off your sins by being righteous and showing mercy to be poor. Tobit says the same thing. There’s no difference.

Do you REALLY see no difference between what Daniel told the King and Tobit teaching that almsgiving will forgive sins?

 

[NathanH83]

Really? When did Paul say that and where? Why is it people here don't like to give the Scripture reference? The Mosaic Law came many years after Abraham.

And it is with Abraham that you see the method God would use for salvation. Faith, not law. (Rom. 4: 2) " For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righeousness."

Paul is addressing (Gen. 15:6). "And he believed in the LORD, and he counted it to him for righteousness".

In other words, the Old Testament is clear that salvation is by faith and not works.

And you didn't answer my question. Why this obsession of yours with the Apocrypha?

Lees

“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”
-Romans 3:27-28

“just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:”
-Romans 4:6 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:6 - New King James Version

“knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”
-Galatians 2:16

“This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
-Galatians 3:2

“Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—“
-Galatians 3:5

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.’ “
-Galatians 3:10

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
-Ephesians 2:8-9 - Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:8-9 - New King James Version

“not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit”
-Titus 3:5 - Bible Gateway passage: Titus 3:5 - New King James Version



Paul says in the The New Testament that righteousness can be obtained through faith in Christ apart from the works of the law. But Tobit lived in Old Testament times. Obviously Tobit kept the law of Moses. No contradiction there. Tobit was an Old Testament Israelite following Old Testament law. Tobit is NOT a New Testament book.

As for your question about my obsession with the Apocrypha, that’s an invention of your own. I’m not obsessed with the Apocrypha. I don’t concede to your invented idea.

 

[NathanH83]

Do you REALLY see no difference between what Daniel told the King and Tobit teaching that almsgiving will forgive sins?

I definitely don’t see a huge contradiction. That’s for sure.

 

[NathanH83]

Because no where in the law does it say that "our sins are purged" by almsgiving.

That is not taught in the Law, the Prophets, or in the New Testament.

Sacrifice is always associated with forgiveness of sins in the Mosaic Law (see Lev 4). Whoever wrote Tobit was not advocating keeping the law. His statement of almsgiving being associated to the "purging" of sin is neither part of the law or the teaching of Grace.

Exodus 30 says that money makes atonement.

"The rich shall not give more and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when you give an offering to the Lord, to make atonement for yourselves. And you shall take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shall appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of meeting, that it may be a memorial for the children of Israel before the Lord, to make atonement for yourselves.”
-Exodus 30:15-16 (NKJV)

Tobit was a law-observant Israelite in the Old Testament times.

 

[NathanH83]

Because no where in the law does it say that "our sins are purged" by almsgiving.

That is not taught in the Law, the Prophets, or in the New Testament.

Sacrifice is always associated with forgiveness of sins in the Mosaic Law (see Lev 4). Whoever wrote Tobit was not advocating keeping the law. His statement of almsgiving being associated to the "purging" of sin is neither part of the law or the teaching of Grace.

Why are shekels of silver involved in the trespass offering?

“If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally in regard to the holy things of the Lord, then he shall bring to the Lord as his trespass offering a ram without blemish from the flocks, with your valuation in shekels of silver according to the shekel of the sanctuary, as a trespass offering. And he shall make restitution for the harm that he has done in regard to the holy thing, and shall add one-fifth to it and give it to the priest. So the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.”
-Leviticus 5:15-16


How come “shekels of silver” and “make atonement” keep showing up next to one another in the Old Testament law?

Tobit was a law observant Israelite in Old Testament times.

 

[NathanH83]

Really? When did Paul say that and where? Why is it people here don't like to give the Scripture reference? The Mosaic Law came many years after Abraham.

And it is with Abraham that you see the method God would use for salvation. Faith, not law. (Rom. 4: 2) " For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righeousness."

Paul is addressing (Gen. 15:6). "And he believed in the LORD, and he counted it to him for righteousness".

In other words, the Old Testament is clear that salvation is by faith and not works.

And you didn't answer my question. Why this obsession of yours with the Apocrypha?

Lees

You think I'm obsessed with the Apocrypha. But I'm not. I've probably been much more obsessed with the 2000 Mules election fraud issue. I've been listening to Dinesh D'Souza's podcast every day. That's what I'm obsessed with at the moment.

 

[Lees]

“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”
-Romans 3:27-28

“just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:”
-Romans 4:6 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:6 - New King James Version

“knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”
-Galatians 2:16

“This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
-Galatians 3:2

“Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—“
-Galatians 3:5

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.’ “
-Galatians 3:10

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
-Ephesians 2:8-9 - Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:8-9 - New King James Version

“not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit”
-Titus 3:5 - Bible Gateway passage: Titus 3:5 - New King James Version



Paul says in the The New Testament that righteousness can be obtained through faith in Christ apart from the works of the law. But Tobit lived in Old Testament times. Obviously Tobit kept the law of Moses. No contradiction there. Tobit was an Old Testament Israelite following Old Testament law. Tobit is NOT a New Testament book.

As for your question about my obsession with the Apocrypha, that’s an invention of your own. I’m not obsessed with the Apocrypha. I don’t concede to your invented idea.

(Genesis) is an Old Testament book. Thus the Old Testament does not teach salvation by works or Law.

No, it's not my invention. You for some reason are obsessed with the Aprocrypha. Let it go. Nothing you can do can make the Apocrypha canonical.

Lees