What are your thoughts on the Christus Victor theory of atonement?

Lees

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No, it's not. I have no control over my beliefs. They are not volitional.

Make yourself believe with all your mind that Hinduism is the true religion for one minute. Then revert your beliefs back to Christianity. See if you can do it.

Well, that is totally contradictory to what you said in post #(17). You say "...I am supposed to believe....irrational laws that even our earthly legal system finds flawed. I cannot do that."

In other words, you gave reasons that 'control' your beliefs. Now you say you have no control. So, which is it? What you should have said is I am just not a believer in Jesus Christ. Instead you gave your 'reasons'.

I am a believer in Jesus Christ. If I were to tell you that Hinduism is true, I would be lying. Because I know the only true faith is faith in Jesus Christ.

In other words, you need to get your story straight.

Lees
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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Those are ideas worth us considering, all right; but OTOH changing your personal data to a "No" answer concerning belief in the Trinity and acceptance of the Nicene Creed would be fairly easy for you to do.
I don't understand what you mean. Please clarify.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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Well, that is totally contradictory to what you said in post #(17). You say "...I am supposed to believe....irrational laws that even our earthly legal system finds flawed. I cannot do that."

In other words, you gave reasons that 'control' your beliefs. Now you say you have no control. So, which is it? What you should have said is I am just not a believer in Jesus Christ. Instead you gave your 'reasons'.

I am a believer in Jesus Christ. If I were to tell you that Hinduism is true, I would be lying. Because I know the only true faith is faith in Jesus Christ.

In other words, you need to get your story straight.

Lees
I don't understand what confuses you. I have found that, for me, beliefs are involuntary, not controllable through willpower. My mind assesses the information that is presented to it and takes the decision of whether to believe it or not. I cannot force myself to believe something for which the evidence that was presented to me was deemed unsatisfactory by my mind. The most I can do is act as if I believed something, but the doubts of said fat's veracity will continue to be a subject of doubt.

What you are saying is that you KNOW that the faith in Jesus is true. How did you come to that knowledge? Did you choose to believe what you were told by whoever presented Christianity to you (e.g.: family members, pastors etc.), or were you presented with proof that your mind assessed as satisfactory?
 

Albion

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I don't understand what you mean. Please clarify.
Well, Lucian, right under your picture to the left of these posts you have answered "Yes" to the question "Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed:"

These last few posts of yours have rather effectively rendered that information incorrect.

You are concerned about integrity and conscience, etc., so it would seem that you wouldn't want to continue having incorrect info posted there.
 

Lees

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I don't understand what confuses you. I have found that, for me, beliefs are involuntary, not controllable through willpower. My mind assesses the information that is presented to it and takes the decision of whether to believe it or not. I cannot force myself to believe something for which the evidence that was presented to me was deemed unsatisfactory by my mind. The most I can do is act as if I believed something, but the doubts of said fat's veracity will continue to be a subject of doubt.

What you are saying is that you KNOW that the faith in Jesus is true. How did you come to that knowledge? Did you choose to believe what you were told by whoever presented Christianity to you (e.g.: family members, pastors etc.), or were you presented with proof that your mind assessed as satisfactory?

I'm not confused. You just contradict yourself.

See, there you go again. You say, "I cannot force myself to believe something for which the evidence that was presented to me was deemed unsatisfactory by my mind". In other words, you don't have a 'faith'. You trust in your 'reason'. You trust in what the scientific method produces for you. And that is what you believe.

And, that is fine. You don't believe. I have no problem if you don't believe. Does that bother you?

Yes, I KNOW the faith in Jesus is true. I came by that faith from God. I didn't 'choose' to believe. I believe. Of course family instruted me the way of God in the Bible. I praise God for them. A Godly heritiage I have.

No proof was necessary. I was told the Bible is the Word of God, and I believed it. I was told Jesus Christ was the Lord and Saviour and I believed it. Why do I believe it and you don't? (John 1:12-13) "...which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

God reveals it to some by His Spirit. Not by the mind and reason. Not by man's will. But from the Spirit of God.

Lees
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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Well, Lucian, right under your picture to the left of these posts you have answered "Yes" to the question "Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed:"

These last few posts of yours have rather effectively rendered that information incorrect.

You are concerned about integrity and conscience, etc., so it would seem that you wouldn't want to continue having incorrect info posted there.
I accept the Trinity and the Nicene Creed (sort of). I just think that we don't have all the details about why it happened, and I find the explanations presented by the various atonement theories to be absurd.

My faith has fluctuated a lot over the past few years, and I don't think that asking to me make assessments of my religious beliefs every single day so that I can accurately change my profile info on an internet forum is a reasonable request.
 
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Lucian Hodoboc

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I'm not confused. You just contradict yourself.
I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. I don't see myself contradicting myself here. Please explain.

See, there you go again. You say, "I cannot force myself to believe something for which the evidence that was presented to me was deemed unsatisfactory by my mind". In other words, you don't have a 'faith'. You trust in your 'reason'. You trust in what the scientific method produces for you. And that is what you believe.
That's an incorrect assumption. I don't choose to believe the scientific method. That is just how my mind works. I don't know whether it is because it has been conditioned that way by my social upbringing or whatever other factors, but that is just how it works. Involuntarily. I wouldn't even say that I believe in the scientific method either because there have been times when I was skeptical of facts that science claimed to have proven (e.g.: macro-evolution, certain claims from the medical field etc.).

And, that is fine. You don't believe. I have no problem if you don't believe. Does that bother you?
Of course it bothers me! I find it very frustrating to constantly be told that I deserve to be tortured for eternity because I was born flawed, and to be required to do something that I don't know how to do (namely, to believe, with its various definitions and ramifications) in order to avoid said torture.

Yes, I KNOW the faith in Jesus is true. I came by that faith from God. I didn't 'choose' to believe. I believe. Of course family instruted me the way of God in the Bible. I praise God for them. A Godly heritiage I have.

No proof was necessary. I was told the Bible is the Word of God, and I believed it. I was told Jesus Christ was the Lord and Saviour and I believed it. Why do I believe it and you don't? (John 1:12-13) "...which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

God reveals it to some by His Spirit. Not by the mind and reason. Not by man's will. But from the Spirit of God.

Lees
So what exactly are you expressing here? Calvinism and the predestination of the elect?
 

Lees

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I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. I don't see myself contradicting myself here. Please explain.


That's an incorrect assumption. I don't choose to believe the scientific method. That is just how my mind works. I don't know whether it is because it has been conditioned that way by my social upbringing or whatever other factors, but that is just how it works. Involuntarily. I wouldn't even say that I believe in the scientific method either because there have been times when I was skeptical of facts that science claimed to have proven (e.g.: macro-evolution, certain claims from the medical field etc.).


Of course it bothers me! I find it very frustrating to constantly be told that I deserve to be tortured for eternity because I was born flawed, and to be required to do something that I don't know how to do (namely, to believe, with its various definitions and ramifications) in order to avoid said torture.


So what exactly are you expressing here? Calvinism and the predestination of the elect?

The bottom line is you don't believe it. Read my post #(12). And then your later response in post #(17).

No explanation will suffice you when you consider God's work of salvation as illogical, irrational, and flawed.

If it bothers you that others believe, I guess you will just be bothered. Because we believe, we tell others about Christ and His salvation.

I was expressing (John 1:11-13) Should I explain what it says? But then why? You would just reject it as illogical, irrational, and flawed.

Lees
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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If it bothers you that others believe, I guess you will just be bothered. Because we believe, we tell others about Christ and His salvation.
It bothers me that I am told to do something (namely, to believe), and, when I explain to you that I don't know how to do that, instead of presenting clear instructions for how I can learn to believe like you do, you reject my inability to believe and tell me that I will be tortured for eternity for not being able to believe.

In simpler terms, the discussion goes like this:

You: Believe that this story happened or else you will be tortured for eternity.
Me: Ok, do you have convincing proof that it happened?
You: Here's some proof.
Me: I don't find your proof convincing.
You: You don't want to find the proof convincing.
Me: No. I want to believe. According to your claim, my eternal life is at stake. Of course I want to believe.
You: Then believe.
Me: I am unable to. My mind has doubts that the story is real.
You: Just believe.
Me: How? Explain to me how to do it.
You: Nothing would convince you if you can't just believe.

Do you understand why that would be frustrating from my point of view?
 

Albion

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I accept the Trinity and the Nicene Creed (sort of).
In other words, you don't.
My faith has fluctuated a lot over the past few years, and I don't think that asking to me make assessments of my religious beliefs every single day so that I can accurately change my profile info on an internet forum is something is a reasonable request.
If you change from the orthodox belief in God to something else and do so from day to day, I'd say that means you don't or cannot accept it...and it doesn't really matter how many days elapse between the one and the other.

However, what you've answered does clarify the matter somewhat.
 

Lees

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It bothers me that I am told to do something (namely, to believe), and, when I explain to you that I don't know how to do that, instead of presenting clear instructions for how I can learn to believe like you do, you reject my inability to believe and tell me that I will be tortured for eternity for not being able to believe.

In simpler terms, the discussion goes like this:

You: Believe that this story happened or else you will be tortured for eternity.
Me: Ok, do you have convincing proof that it happened?
You: Here's some proof.
Me: I don't find your proof convincing.
You: You don't want to find the proof convincing.
Me: No. I want to believe. According to your claim, my eternal life is at stake. Of course I want to believe.
You: Then believe.
Me: I am unable to. My mind has doubts that the story is real.
You: Just believe.
Me: How? Explain to me how to do it.
You: Nothing would convince you if you can't just believe.

Do you understand why that would be frustrating from my point of view?

You don't 'learn to believe'. You believe or not. I don't reject your inability to believe. I accept your inability to believe. Your unbelief doesn't affect me. Your unbelief doesn't cause me to worry that maybe it is not true. So, why does my belief cause you to worry about being cast into the lake of fire. If you don't believe it, what is your problem?

I will tell you your problem. It's not that no one has been unable to teach you to believe. That is just a go-to argument that you feel makes hay. It is that you despise those who believe. You don't believe and you want to do what you can to cast doubt upon what the believer believes. And you can't. Why? Because we did not come to Christ by logic, rationalism, or the world's reason. We came by faith. And your so called arguments from logic and rationalism cannot move one who has come by faith. Just like there is no argument for us to teach you how to come by faith. We present you Jesus Christ. Believe on Him and you will be saved.

Your made up story is not true.

I believe all that the Bible says and what it says about Jesus Christ. That includes the history and the instruction concerning salvation.

I never offered you proof. See post #(18) I simply state the Scripture and what it says. Believe on Jesus Christ.

If you don't believe, then your statement that you want to believe is not true. If you don't believe, then what I believe should not affect you at all. I believe you when you say you don't believe. I don't believe you when you say you want to believe.

You don't believe and you don't want others to believe. Thus your arguments. Which are arguments in futility. You can't make a believer stop believing.

Lees
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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Your unbelief doesn't affect me.
It should. It should sadden and worry you. It should make you want to find a way to make me believe, especially because I manifested a desire to believe.

As a Christian, you should strive to help your brethren who want to be saved. Jesus told the disciples to walk away from those who reject the Gospel, not from those who want to be saved, but don't know how to believe. When Saint Philip asked the eunuch if he understood the Scriptures, the eunuch said: “How can I [understand], unless someone explains it to me?” (Acts 8:31).

So, why does my belief cause you to worry about being cast into the lake of fire. If you don't believe it, what is your problem?
Because I acknowledge the possibility that it might be true and what the stakes are.

It is that you despise those who believe. You don't believe and you want to do what you can to cast doubt upon what the believer believes.
Despise? Absolutely not. I would say I envy them because they seem to have something that I don't know how to obtain. I dislike the attitude some of them have in regards to presenting their beliefs, but I don't despise believers.

Because we did not come to Christ by logic, rationalism, or the world's reason. We came by faith.
Can this faith you speak of be explained in any way to someone else? Can someone be made to understand through words what it is and how it can be obtained? If not, then any discussion about it is useless.

If you don't believe, then your statement that you want to believe is not true. If you don't believe, then what I believe should not affect you at all. I believe you when you say you don't believe. I don't believe you when you say you want to believe.
Well, that's your opinion. You're entitled to have it, but it is false. If I didn't want to believe, I would not have spent several years reading Scripture, watching sermons, reading Christian theology, and praying almost everyday.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Share your thoughts after you've watched this video.
The video has some interesting things to say. The initial analogy to Martin Luther King's assassination and the signing of the civil rights bill into law by then president Johnson in 1968 is probably overstating the influence of the assassination on the law insofar as the law had already been drafted, debated, and passed before King's death. But the video was interesting.

God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. the prohibition against eating "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die." The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen 2:17) symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognise and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of. (Gen 3:1-11;Rom 5:19) All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Created in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinised" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God". (compare with Gen 3:5)

Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.(compare Rom 3:23) They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.(Gen 3:7-16) Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.(see Gen 3:19) Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay".(Rom 8:21) Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground", for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.(Rom 5:12)

Starting from here, considering also the flood of sin that followed Adam & Eve's first sin we can start to analyse the Video's presentation of the Christus Victor theory of atonement.
 

MoreCoffee

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The Catholic video of the opening post actually somewhat misrepresents the Christus Victor view.
The site has a "pastor" and conducts "church services" so it is not a Catholic video.
 

Josiah

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The site is not a Catholic video.


Here is the main page of the site:

3 Minute Theology


It does NOT say that it's LDS or Methodist or Anglican or Orthodox or Lutheran. It does not say it is a parish of some denomination. The page - with an image of the Vatican - says this:

"Three Minute Theology was born out of a desire to spread the joy of the Gospel to people regardless of who they are, where they are, and how busy they are. If we want to love Jesus, we need to know him. So who is Jesus? Who is His Bride, the Church? Why do Catholics believe what they believe and do what they do? 3MT aims at helping Catholics know more about their Faith and gives them a way to share what they believe. Know someone with questions about the Church? There just might be a 3MT episode that begins to answer those questions."

Now, More Coffee, WHAT EXACTLY in that convinces you that this is not a Catholic site but maybe Mormon or Presbyterian or Methodist?



Blessings on your Easter season....

And welcome back to CH! You have been missed.


- Josiah




.
 
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MoreCoffee

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WHAT EXACTLY in that convinces you that this is not a Catholic site but maybe Mormon or Presbyterian or Methodist?



- Josiah
Hi. There is a point on one of the videos of the "Corner Church" in which he says that it's applying for membership in the Free Methodist Church (of Canada) and the Church of the Nazarene, which apparently were or are about to finalize a merger. Most likely the non-denominational style of the Corner Church includes the hope of bringing Roman Catholics to Christ.
 

Josiah

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The video comes from this YouTube channel


No. It specifically states that it is a video of 3 Minute Theology. Even states which video from it that it is. You may have found it at YouTube ... it may be some other site placed it on its site, but it is a 3 Minute Theology video.

See post 35. I note EXACTLY what 3 Minute Theology says about itself.



.
 

MoreCoffee

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Thanks for your replies Josiah.
The web site that you gave doesn't have the video from the first post.
The web site that you gave has a link to its own YouTube channel.
It is not the channel that contains the video from the first post in this thread.
 

Lees

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It should. It should sadden and worry you. It should make you want to find a way to make me believe, especially because I manifested a desire to believe.

As your Christian, you should strive to help your brethren who want to be saved. Jesus told the disciples to walk away from those who reject the Gospel, not from those who want to be saved, but don't know how to believe. When Saint Philip asked the eunuch if he understood the Scriptures, the eunuch said: “How can I [understand], unless someone explains it to me?” (Acts 8:31).


Because I acknowledge the possibility that it might be true and what the stakes are.


Despise? Absolutely not. I would say I envy them because they seem to have something that I don't know how to obtain. I dislike the attitude some of them have in regards to presenting their beliefs, but I don't despise believers.


Can this faith you speak of be explained in any way to someone else? Can someone be made to understand through words what it is and how it can be obtained? If not, then any discussion about it is useless.


Well, that's your opinion. You're entitled to have it, but it is false. If I didn't want to believe, I would not have spent several years reading Scripture, watching sermons, reading Christian theology, and praying almost everyday.

It doesn't sadden or worry me. Making you believe is not my responsibility. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. I simply deliver the message that I am responsible to deliver. The one you rejected. And I explained to you the Scripture. Yet, unlike the eunuch in the book of (Acts), you rejected it.

Again, I don't believe you think it might be true. You claim you can never believe such a non-sensical belief system. Post #(17) Now you contradict yourself and say it might by true. I don't believe you. All you are doing is trying to create doubt in believers because you don't believe. That is what you hate...the fact that others believe this. So, again, if you don't believe it, what is your problem? Because your unbelief creates no problem for me. Your unbelief doesn't cause me to say you might be right.

You envy the believers? That is a lie. You cannot say what you did in post #(17) to those you envy. You say that to those you despise and hate. But because I call you on it, you now make yourself to be caring and concerned and wanting to be saved but just can't. Why? Because poor you just can't understand because none of those Christians can explain it. Boo-hoo. Cry me a river. More cheese with that whine.

The Gospel is given to all. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That is the Christian faith. That is what has been given you. I have given you Scripture, yet you say it is illogical, and irrational, and flawed. Yet you keep asking for more. Why? Scripture is clear that there are those who will not understand because they are not seeking God. They seek the things of the world. The wisdom of the world. The approval of the world. Just as I already pointed out to you in post #(18). (1 Cor. 2:14) (1 Cor. 3;19) You are correct that any discussion with you is useless. Why? Because you are not seeking God. You seek to distort the things of God. And, though you try and present this facade of 'not understanding', God knows you do. (Romans 1:18-20)

Again, I don't believe you. And your statement that if you didn't want to believe you wouldn't have spent years studying the Scripture, and listening to sermons, and praying daily, simply compounds your lie that you don't believe but you want to believe. I know of many atheists who do the same for the purpose of trying to destroy the Christians faith. And what better place to do it then on a 'Christian Forum'. The fact is, you may well cause a Christian to stumble. But you won't cause him to fall. And that probably irritates you worse yet.

I personally wouldn't want to be in your shoes. (Matt. 18:6)

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