LCMS Eucharist

[Josiah]

What do you mean there is no confect? The host and wine are bread and wine before the priest or pastor says the words of institution, then they become Jesus’ body and blood.

Then where's the "confect?"

That claim - made by only and exclusively the one, singular, Roman Catholic denomination (and that officially only for the past 500 years) is not a "confect." The CLAIM of that one denomination is for an Aristotelian transubstantiation.

Lutherans and Anglicans reject this medieval invention of the singular Catholic Church. The Orthodox at times use the term but mean something quite different by it than the modern, post-Trent RCC does.

But you changed your own topic, my friend: The issue here is not WHETHER or HOW Christ is present or whether the bread and wine are also present (and if so how), the issue you raised is the CLAIM of the singular Catholic denomination that only ITS own, unique clergy can consecrate the Sacrament - all others being invalid (if not sinful). It itself alone can do this. Perhaps you realize: this is only a claim, they have nothing whatsoever to support it.




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[Faith]

Then where's the "confect?"

That claim - made by only and exclusively the one, singular, Roman Catholic denomination (and that officially only for the past 500 years) is not a "confect." The CLAIM of that one denomination is for an Aristotelian transubstantiation.

Lutherans and Anglicans reject this medieval invention of the singular Catholic Church. The Orthodox at times use the term but mean something quite different by it than the modern, post-Trent RCC does.

But you changed your own topic, my friend: The issue here is not WHETHER or HOW Christ is present or whether the bread and wine are also present (and if so how), the issue you raised is the CLAIM of the singular Catholic denomination that only ITS own, unique clergy can consecrate the Sacrament - all others being invalid (if not sinful). It itself alone can do this. Perhaps you realize: this is only a claim, they have nothing whatsoever to support it.




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Ok….so where did their claim come from?

 

[Josiah]

Ok….so where did their claim come from?

Ego, I suspect. But friend, just because a claim is made doesn't make it valid. Ever heard of the LDS?

Lutheran: Holy Communion

This Sacrament, also known as the Eucharist or Lord’s Supper, may be thought of as “God’s way of hugging us.” Jesus shares the promised blessing: “This is My blood which is poured out for the forgiveness of sins” (Matthew 26:28). While this Sacrament doesn’t play a huge role in Scripture, we...

www.christianityhaven.com

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[Faith]

Ego, I suspect. But friend, just because a claim is made doesn't make it valid. Ever heard of the LDS?

Lutheran: Holy Communion

This Sacrament, also known as the Eucharist or Lord’s Supper, may be thought of as “God’s way of hugging us.” Jesus shares the promised blessing: “This is My blood which is poured out for the forgiveness of sins” (Matthew 26:28). While this Sacrament doesn’t play a huge role in Scripture, we...

www.christianityhaven.com

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Yes I have. But I don’t think the majority of priests are lying, if that’s what you’re thinking. They really believe this.

 

[Josiah]

They really believe this.

The LDS believes what the LDS claims, too. Doesn't make it true. You seem to know it CLAIMS this, and you are right. No one is denying that. But I think there's an important issue here: Where is the substantiation for it? Is the claim TRUE? Yes, it's made (I'm never amazed by how egotistical people can be) but is it true?



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[Faith]

I just started a thread on evolution and the LCMS. Let’s discuss that.

 

[Josiah]

I just started a thread on evolution and the LCMS. Let’s discuss that.

Let's not change the subject.



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[Albion]

That’s the word I’ve heard used many times. And it is making something new. It’s making ordinary bread and wine into Jesus and His blood.

The word that's normally used is "consecrate." The priest/minister of course doesn't assemble anything there, but he prays over the bread and wine, and what changes is God's doing.

 

[Faith]

Let's not change the subject.

We can’t have more than one subject here?

 

[Faith]

The word that's normally used is "consecrate." The priest/minister of course doesn't assemble anything there, but he prays over the bread and wine, and what changes is God's doing.

Ok, then I stand corrected. But I have heard it many times.

 

[Lamb]

Exactly.

But that doesn't make it true just because they say so. Atheists claim there is no God but that's not true because they believe it.

 

[Albion]

Ok….so where did their claim come from?

Josiah made a reference to it in an earlier post. Transubstantiation is based upon an inversion of a principle advanced by Aristotle, who was much admired during the Middle Ages.

Because he said that the substance of an object does not change even when its external appearance does, it was supposed by the Church's theologians that the consecrating of the Communion elements was a proven miracle because, when consecrated, the bread and wine are said by the Catholic Church to change their substance (into Christ's body and blood) while the external appearance, taste, and so forth nevertheless remain the same. While the first century Church had believed in Real Presence, it did not believe in the religious alchemy that is Transubstantiation.

 

[RichWh1]

I just started a thread on evolution and the LCMS. Let’s discuss that.

Trying to change the subject I see. No answer? Change topic


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Faith]

Trying to change the subject I see. No answer? Change topic


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

if I was changing the subject for avoidance, I’d have changed it in this thread. HTH.

 

[Faith]

if I was changing the subject for avoidance, I’d have changed it in this thread. HTH.

The only question I haven’t answered was what I believe is a rhetorical question.

 

[Faith]

You don't believe God calls the pastors of LCMS churches to lead the congregations and most especially to consecrate the elements? Why would only the priests of the Roman Catholic church be eligible?

Jesus is present in, with and under the bread and wine because Jesus instituted the Holy Supper and God calls pastors to consecrate and distribute the meal.

Jesus never said His body and blood linger after Communion. What is the purpose of Holy Communion? It is for us to eat His body and drink His blood for the forgiveness of sins. Once communion is over, that mission was complete and the elements no longer contain His body and blood. A lot of LCMS churches have a special sink to pour down the remaining wine and some pour it reverently into the ground.

The Catholic people on another forum are being kind of rude. It’s the same old arguments about theirs being the first Church Christ started etc.

 

[Faith]

I'd think that you must first decide if the claim of him not having valid orders is correct or not.


What you've described seems to me to be a crude way of concluding the distribution of the Communion and not what I've ever experienced in a Lutheran church. In any case, a more reverent way that some Lutheran churches use is to pour what remains into a special basin and drain (which is also to be found in Catholic churches) or upon the ground.

In the Catholic Church, the claim is made that no wine/blood escapes but only water. However, during washing of the chalice and the cloth that wipes it, SOME of the wine remains in or on the chalice and cloth--the point you, in effect, were making--no matter how little that amounts to. In the Anglican churches, the priest is directed to consume all the unused but consecrated wine, himself.

I don’t know what they do with the extra wine, I think that they may drink it or, as you said, pour it in a special basin. I wasn’t talking about that wine I was talking about what’s left on the sides of the disposable cups after drinking the blood/wine.

 

[Faith]

Sure, they CLAIM that.... for self.... exclusively.... cuz they are Roman Catholic (and not Anglican or Orthodox or Lutheran). No one will deny that they CLAIM this remarkable power-grabbing, divisive claim for themselves exclusively. My issue is this: Is this claim TRUE? As a former Catholic, I found nothing that so suggests.... just a LOT of ego and a felt need to lift up self rather than others.


The THEOLOGY of Catholicism and Lutheranism is quite close regarding the Sacrament. It's VERY different regarding self.



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One just said that Luther was paranoid and a lunatic.

 

[Albion]

I don’t know what they do with the extra wine, I think that they may drink it or, as you said, pour it in a special basin. I wasn’t talking about that wine I was talking about what’s left on the sides of the disposable cups after drinking the blood/wine.

The situation is essentially the same, however.

If it's consecrated but unused wine/blood in the chalice that the priest/minister must do something with after Communion...or if it's a residue of the same fluid in the cups used in some churches...the issue still concerns what to do with already consecrated wine/blood, and in a respectful manner.

It may matter, though, that some churches believe that once the wine has been consecrated, it forever is the blood of Christ, while in other churches the change is believed to be effective only for the purpose intended--the communing of the believers, not anything else.

 

[Faith]

The situation is essentially the same, however.

If it's consecrated but unused wine/blood in the chalice that the priest/minister must do something with after Communion...or if it's a residue of the same fluid in the cups used in some churches...the issue still concerns what to do with already consecrated wine/blood, and in a respectful manner.

It may matter, though, that some churches believe that once the wine has been consecrated, it forever is the blood of Christ, while in other churches the change is believed to be effective only for the purpose intended--the communing of the believers, not anything else.

I think my church believes the latter.