Purgatory

[Stephen]

These arguments are going nowhere so I'm going to summarise my points and then leave it.

1. I showed what the Catholic Church actually teaches about Purgatory rather than the fanciful ideas some people have - see posts #34 & #86

2. I showed these ideas are also present in Judaism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism - see post #34 & #75

3. I showed that the early Church also believed in Purgatory and praying for the dead - see post #56 & #57

4. I showed that there is much scriptural evidence for Purgatory - see posts #40, #47, #58, #59.

God bless

Stephen

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

The video below is 10 minutes long (too long for many, so I apologize). I think it does a good job of laying out this issue.

MY experience - as a former Catholic and conversations with Catholic family and friends - this is a Dogma of the Roman Catholic Church that seems... well... ignored if not abandoned. I don't recall a single case of this even mentioned in my Catholic parish.... no sermons, no teachings. And I've been to several Catholic memorial services and (surprisingly) not one mention of this...ever. Indeed, I recall SPECIFIC mentions of the loved one "BEING in heaven."

Some in the East have a MUCH more vague and non-required view that is a bit similar, but Purgatory is a new and distinctive Dogma of just The Catholic Church, just that one denomination.. As I understand it, the "roots" of this do go back to the Early Church but it developed very uniquely in the West and did not gain dogma status until Florence and Trent (15th and 16th Century).

The modernists hate the true faith and true ordinary faithful catholics

 

[Albion]

Purgatory is nothing more than a Medieval conjecture that is no longer believed even by ordinary Catholics. That's why the church that created it is phasing it out, as she did earlier with Limbo. There's nothing much more to say about the matter...and that didn't take 10 minutes!

 

[Lanman87]

The modernists hate the true faith and true ordinary faithful catholics

Who determines who are the modernist and who are ordinary faithful catholic?

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Who determines who are the modernist and who are ordinary faithful catholic?

“Thee faith” revealed by Christ! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Do you think the Assisi prayer for peace is catholic? Better check the 1st commandment!
The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Truth is revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles) Jude 1:3 then proposed by the church! Matt 28:19

There have been invalid or anti-popes in history! By their fruits you shall know them
So what do they teach? Thee faith or modernism progressivism heresy?
Since Pius 12 there room for doubt in my opinion

 

[Lamb]

“Thee faith” revealed by Christ! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Do you think the Assisi prayer for peace is catholic? Better check the 1st commandment!
The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Truth is revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles) Jude 1:3 then proposed by the church! Matt 28:19

There have been invalid or anti-popes in history! By their fruits you shall know them
So what do they teach? Thee faith or modernism progressivism heresy?
Since Pius 12 there room for doubt in my opinion

"thee faith"? That's a term I haven't heard before.

 

[Lanman87]

Since Pius 12 there room for doubt in my opinion

Well then you are contradicting yourself. You posted this:

Spiritual Anarchy!

Pride, presumption, and arrogance!

Private judgement!

Personal interpretation!

I decide truth for myself!

This is NOT Christian virtues!

You are doing the exact same thing by deciding for yourself that the Catholic church is apostate.
And you contradict yourself by claiming the Catholic church is infallible. The Pope is chosen by the Magisterium. If they chose the "wrong" person to be pope (or Cardinals or Bishops) then it shows that they are not infallible. If they are teaching a false gospel then that also shows the Catholic church is not infallible.

You are the one deciding what is truth and what is not truth. Which is fine, that is your right as a human being. But you are doing the same thing you've accused others of doing on this board. If you don't follow the teachings of the Pope and Magisterium that is currently in charge of the Catholic church then you aren't any more Catholic than I am. You are a protestant following what you believe the Gospel teaches instead of what being faithful to the Catholic church. You aren't a believer in Catholicism, you are a believer in your own version of Catholicism.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

"thee faith"? That's a term I haven't heard before.

You will find it 31 times in the New Testament
Such as eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

 

[Lamb]

You will find it 31 times in the New Testament
Such as eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

The word "thee" is not in my translation. Could you post your translation please to show "thee faith"?

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Well then you are contradicting yourself. You posted this:





You are doing the exact same thing by deciding for yourself that the Catholic church is apostate.
And you contradict yourself by claiming the Catholic church is infallible. The Pope is chosen by the Magisterium. If they chose the "wrong" person to be pope (or Cardinals or Bishops) then it shows that they are not infallible. If they are teaching a false gospel then that also shows the Catholic church is not infallible.

You are the one deciding what is truth and what is not truth. Which is fine, that is your right as a human being. But you are doing the same thing you've accused others of doing on this board. If you don't follow the teachings of the Pope and Magisterium that is currently in charge of the Catholic church then you aren't any more Catholic than I am. You are a protestant following what you believe the Gospel teaches instead of what being faithful to the Catholic church. You aren't a believer in Catholicism, you are a believer in your own version of Catholicism.

Oh no no no, I said room for doubt, the faith revealed by God has no room for doubt, it is unlawful to reject a truth revealed by God! It is dogma: incontrovertible truth!
The catholic faith is the measure!

not personal judgement

 

[Lanman87]

Oh no no no, I said room for doubt, the faith revealed by God has no room for doubt, it is unlawful to reject a truth revealed by God! It is dogma: incontrovertible truth!
The catholic faith is the measure!

not personal judgement

Then I'll ask again. Do you submit to Pope Francis, the college of Cardinals, your local Bishop, and your local Priest? The Catholic church considers them all valid. Do you?

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

The word "thee" is not in my translation. Could you post your translation please to show "thee faith"?

Not a version but based on the fact that there is only one faithall Christians
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

The new covenant unity:
Union with Christ the mediator and communion with God and the saints is based on “unity of faith”

“Thee faith” of the new covenant that all must believe without any error, false or strange doctrines foreign to “thee faith” of the new covenant!

“Thee faith” is found 31 times in the New Testament!

Obedience of faith: rom 16:26

Ephesians 4
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ...

Romans 12:16
Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Romans 15:6
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Philippians 2:2
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Then I'll ask again. Do you submit to Pope Francis, the college of Cardinals, your local Bishop, and your local Priest? The Catholic church considers them all valid. Do you?

Only those who are validly ordained with the true sacraments

 

[Lanman87]

Only those who are validly ordained with the true sacraments

So you disagree with the Catholic church??? Which means it is your opinion and you are following your own opinions.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

So you disagree with the Catholic church??? Which means it is your opinion and you are following your own opinions.

Perhaps what you are calling the Catholic Church “the Vatican”

the Vatican was taken over in 1958 when the enemies of Christ murdered Pius 12 and two cardinals and roncalli was announced as pope!

 

[Lanman87]

the Vatican was taken over in 1958 when the enemies of Christ murdered Pius 12 and two cardinals and roncalli was announced as p

Which is your opinion.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Which is your opinion.

Yes. Never said it was dogma

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

The Freemason and the church founded by Christ are in a fight to the death, as they say, and the Freemasons never ever lived or praised any valid pope, but they love and praise roncalli, red flag? The day after roncalli was announced without doing anything the French Freemasons said and I quote “we wholeheartedly support the Revolution of John 23”! What revolution?
“For a hundred years we have tried to get the church to recognize our principles, with the second Vatican council we triumphed”!

room for doubts?
I make no definitive statement of absolute truth but yes I have my doubts

 

[Lanman87]

Yes. Never said it was dogma

because of your opinion you are rejecting ordained priest, bishops, and popes and their teachings. How is that any different than what Luther did?

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

because of your opinion you are rejecting ordained priest, bishops, and popes and their teachings. How is that any different than what Luther did?

I’m not rejecting anyone, I only said I have doubts as to their being valid and that their teaching is catholic and divine faith
luther openly oppose valid bishops and a council