In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior?

[FredVB]

I find 1 Maccabees is of interest and worthy of looking at in my estimation, though it is not from inspiration of Yahweh to be included in the Bible. It fills in important history within the inter-testament times well that helps a reader to understand more for how the time covered in the new testament for that area came about, and a few prophecies in the old testament deal with events of that time.

 

[NathanH83]

I find 1 Maccabees is of interest and worthy of looking at in my estimation, though it is not from inspiration of Yahweh to be included in the Bible. It fills in important history within the inter-testament times well that helps a reader to understand more for how the time covered in the new testament for that area came about, and a few prophecies in the old testament deal with events of that time.

Why isn’t 1 Maccabees inspired Holy scripture?

 

[NathanH83]

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In Post #262, Pinacled said: “Judith was a deceitful murderer in stark contrast to david who faced the enemy with countless witnesses.”

And in Post #267: “Noblility is a direction that judith ignored and turned away from.”

He’s totally correct.

Obviously, Judith should have found some armour to don, then challenged that trained warrior Holofernes to a “fair fight”.

Shame! Shame!

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What about Jael?

 

[Pedrito]

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I guess that some would suggest that Jael should have donned armour and issued a challenge, as well.

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I don’t think I would so suggest.

But maybe I just lack proper perspective.

What thinkest the multitude?

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[FredVB]

Why isn’t 1 Maccabees inspired Holy scripture?

I think 1 Maccabees is very informative of that time in history for where the people of Israel, now Jews, were. But not everything being very informative is considered as inspired holy scriptures. Why should it be considered so? That is what should be asked. We might ask for the prophetic or apostolic authority, self-authentication of inspiration, rule of faith, content commending itself to believing readers, universality of church usage, being found. Are these found in it? Any from text being quoted in new testament passages is relevant to the witness of inspiration from God. The witness from Jesus is to the murders from Abel to Zechariah, but nothing of what happened after Zechariah.

What about Jael?

Yes, that should be asked, as I did previously, In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior?

 

[Andrew]

I think 1 Maccabees is very informative of that time in history for where the people of Israel, now Jews, were. But not everything being very informative is considered as inspired holy scriptures. Why should it be considered so? That is what should be asked. We might ask for the prophetic or apostolic authority, self-authentication of inspiration, rule of faith, content commending itself to believing readers, universality of church usage, being found. Are these found in it? Any from text being quoted in new testament passages is relevant to the witness of inspiration from God. The witness from Jesus is to the murders from Abel to Zechariah, but nothing of what happened after Zechariah.



Yes, that should be asked, as I did previously, In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior?

Daniel and Hebrews are both relevant to 1 and 2 Maccabees, Jesus even attended the Maccabean feast... He most likely attended this every year of his life so.. kind of important, and thanks to Christian church tradition we still have these texts today.

 

[Lamb]

Daniel and Hebrews are both relevant to 1 and 2 Maccabees, Jesus even attended the Maccabean feast... He most likely attended this every year of his life so.. kind of important, and thanks to Christian church tradition we still have these texts today.

Yeah, but how does that point to Jesus as Savior? Attending a feast or not doesn't answer my question.

 

[Andrew]

Yeah, but how does that point to Jesus as Savior? Attending a feast or not doesn't answer my question.

Wisdom Chapter 2 is so accurate in detail of the crucifixion it escapes me how any Christian would deny it of being one of the most profound prophetic texts in what was once considered part of the OT by many early Christians (knowing it did not survive to today but through early church tradition, transcribed into greek a mere 50 years before the birth of Christ)

 

[Andrew]

Yeah, but how does that point to Jesus as Savior? Attending a feast or not doesn't answer my question.

Maccabees is useful for understanding how revelation will play out, after all it's part of Daniel's prophecy which is echoed in Revelation.

Antiochus is an anti-Christ figure in the story of the Maccabees who literally set up a statue of Zeus inside the 2nd Temple for pagans to sacrifice pigs too on the alter.. Jews back then were literally forced to worship pagan gods and if they were found worshipping the on true God they were killed and tortured..

Your question of how it points to Jesus, well the whole idea of praying mercy on the dead was that they maintain a better resurrection when the prophet should come, hence why many were tortured for their belief in the Christ who will raise the dead.

There were also prayers to God that the revolt would drive out the heathens from the Holy Temple, which apparently God granted his sovereign blessing and answered.. in this the Jews today still honor that blessing each year during Hanukkah.. in Maccabees the details of the dedication festival is given and hasn't changed much since.

 

[Lamb]

Wisdom Chapter 2 is so accurate in detail of the crucifixion it escapes me how any Christian would deny it of being one of the most profound prophetic texts in what was once considered part of the OT by many early Christians (knowing it did not survive to today but through early church tradition, transcribed into greek a mere 50 years before the birth of Christ)

There is no sure date of when Wisdom was actually written and it's possible that it was written after Christ died.

"The Wisdom of Solomon is a text that does not appear in Protestant Bibles, though it is part of the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic canons. Written sometime between the late first century B.C. and the early first century A.D.1—perhaps as early as 27 B.C. or as late as 41 A.D."

Apocrypha Now! The Wisdom of Solomon in the Age of Ultron — Conciliar Post

Ancient texts are not irrelevant to today’s debates for the plain fact that they are ancient. Rather, ancient texts prove that today’s debates recapitulate eternal questions of the human condition. Last week I had the pleasure of reading The Wisdom of Solomon and viewing Avengers: Age of Ultron...

conciliarpost.com

 

[Andrew]

There is no sure date of when Wisdom was actually written and it's possible that it was written after Christ died.

"The Wisdom of Solomon is a text that does not appear in Protestant Bibles, though it is part of the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic canons. Written sometime between the late first century B.C. and the early first century A.D.1—perhaps as early as 27 B.C. or as late as 41 A.D."

Apocrypha Now! The Wisdom of Solomon in the Age of Ultron — Conciliar Post

Ancient texts are not irrelevant to today’s debates for the plain fact that they are ancient. Rather, ancient texts prove that today’s debates recapitulate eternal questions of the human condition. Last week I had the pleasure of reading The Wisdom of Solomon and viewing Avengers: Age of Ultron...

conciliarpost.com

So Jesus was crucified in approximately 33 AD and between 33 AD to 41 AD somebody wrote the book of Wisdom for what? To prove to the Jews that the crucifixion was written in a brand new book that they wouldn't have been familiar with? Trying to pass it off as authentic?? A BOOK THAT NO JEW HAD EVER READ.. EVER?? ...further more, being that the crucifixion had taken place only 8 years earlier they (unbelieving Jews) would first have to BELIEVE that Jesus really was crucified, the resurrection and ascension is not even mentioned in Wisdom, only that He is called the son of God. Btw the writer who would have forged the book of Wisdom in 8 years after the crucifixion, would not even be a true Christian (for lying), nor an unbeliving Jew (for promoting Christianity).

The Jewish Talmud actually quotes from the book of Wisdom, no Rabbi would have quoted from a text forged by a Christian.

The assumption that it must have been the work of a Jewish/Hellenistic philosopher is due to personal opinions that it all sounds too greek.. because "Wisdom" is a "she"...this is a lame argument since Solomon also referred to wisdom as a "she".

Out of all the OT books the early Christians quoted from, the majority quote from the book of Wisdom.

The dating of Wisdom reaching as late as 41AD is an implausible and impractical assumption. The guy in your article actually implies the same thing. So think about it, what if it was proven to have been written before the crucifixion... would you find Wisdom 2 as bold and as solid in accuracy as I do? Along with the many early church fathers who have stated that the book of Wisdom is God-breathed, Sacred, or as Origen put it "from the Logos/Word of God Almighty"?

 

[NathanH83]

I think 1 Maccabees is very informative of that time in history for where the people of Israel, now Jews, were. But not everything being very informative is considered as inspired holy scriptures. Why should it be considered so? That is what should be asked. We might ask for the prophetic or apostolic authority, self-authentication of inspiration, rule of faith, content commending itself to believing readers, universality of church usage, being found. Are these found in it? Any from text being quoted in new testament passages is relevant to the witness of inspiration from God. The witness from Jesus is to the murders from Abel to Zechariah, but nothing of what happened after Zechariah.



Yes, that should be asked, as I did previously, In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior?

Jesus was just saying that they murdered prophets from Abel to Zechariah. Obviously they didn’t murder prophets after Zechariah, since there were no prophets after his time. Why would Jesus accuse the Pharisees of murdering prophets in the days of the Maccabees when there were no prophets at that time? That doesn’t make sense.

“Abel to Zechariah” is about the prophets they murdered, not about what books belong in the Bible. Don’t put words in God’s mouth.

 

[NathanH83]

Yeah, but how does that point to Jesus as Savior? Attending a feast or not doesn't answer my question.

If it wasn’t for the zeal of Mattathias and his sons, Judaism would be wiped out. There would be no Jewish faith when Jesus shows up. How does that NOT point to Christ? If it doesn’t point to Christ, then why would Daniel waste his time and ink writing about it? Why would God waste Daniel’s time telling him about it?

 

[Lamb]

If it wasn’t for the zeal of Mattathias and his sons, Judaism would be wiped out. There would be no Jewish faith when Jesus shows up. How does that NOT point to Christ? If it doesn’t point to Christ, then why would Daniel waste his time and ink writing about it? Why would God waste Daniel’s time telling him about it?

God was the one who kept the timeline going. So it wouldn't have been wiped out because man's will according to you would be stronger than God's? Nope. And just because things show historically correct facts, that doesn't point to Jesus as SAVIOR.

 

[NathanH83]

So Jesus was crucified in approximately 33 AD and between 33 AD to 41 AD somebody wrote the book of Wisdom for what? To prove to the Jews that the crucifixion was written in a brand new book that they wouldn't have been familiar with? Trying to pass it off as authentic?? A BOOK THAT NO JEW HAD EVER READ.. EVER?? ...further more, being that the crucifixion had taken place only 8 years earlier they (unbelieving Jews) would first have to BELIEVE that Jesus really was crucified, the resurrection and ascension is not even mentioned in Wisdom, only that He is called the son of God. Btw the writer who would have forged the book of Wisdom in 8 years after the crucifixion, would not even be a true Christian (for lying), nor an unbeliving Jew (for promoting Christianity).

The Jewish Talmud actually quotes from the book of Wisdom, no Rabbi would have quoted from a text forged by a Christian.

The assumption that it must have been the work of a Jewish/Hellenistic philosopher is due to personal opinions that it all sounds too greek.. because "Wisdom" is a "she"...this is a lame argument since Solomon also referred to wisdom as a "she".

Out of all the OT books the early Christians quoted from, the majority quote from the book of Wisdom.

The dating of Wisdom reaching as late as 41AD is an implausible and impractical assumption. The guy in your article actually implies the same thing. So think about it, what if it was proven to have been written before the crucifixion... would you find Wisdom 2 as bold and as solid in accuracy as I do? Along with the many early church fathers who have stated that the book of Wisdom is God-breathed, Sacred, or as Origen put it "from the Logos/Word of God Almighty"?

I find it interesting that the moment you show how the book of Wisdom points to Christ, she immediately shifts the conversation to the date when it was written…as if pointing to Christ was never the topic of discussion.

 

[NathanH83]

God was the one who kept the timeline going. So it wouldn't have been wiped out because man's will according to you would be stronger than God's? Nope. And just because things show historically correct facts, that doesn't point to Jesus as SAVIOR.

Yea, God kept the timeline going, and kept Judaism going, and he used the Maccabees to do it. That’s why it’s important. The Maccabees were Levite priests, descendants of Aaron, who restored true worship at the temple during a time of apostasy. No wonder Jesus showed up to the feast. If it’s valuable to Jesus, then it’s valuable enough for me to read about it.

 

[Lamb]

I find it interesting that the moment you show how the book of Wisdom points to Christ, she immediately shifts the conversation to the date when it was written…as if pointing to Christ was never the topic of discussion.

The date is absolutely important! Of course I'm going to call it out that there is no firm date to confirm whether it's true prophecy or just historical text written after the fact. There are books today written about Jesus' death but they're not going to be put into the bible, are they?

 

[Andrew]

The date is absolutely important! Of course I'm going to call it out that there is no firm date to confirm whether it's true prophecy or just historical text written after the fact. There are books today written about Jesus' death but they're not going to be put into the bible, are they?

The man who came to the conclusion of the dates 37AD - 41 AD is....

David Winston, Professor of Hellenistic and Judaic Studies and Director of the Center for Judaic Studies at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California

...In his commentary book, also called "The Wisdom of Solomon" he uses a 'before and after' approach, i.e. Jesus is alluded to in the book of Wisdom thus it must have been written AFTER the fact.

He bases it "around the time of Caligula" and I'm curious to know why so I ordered his book.

He is the ONLY one who accepts this date!

 

[NathanH83]

The date is absolutely important! Of course I'm going to call it out that there is no firm date to confirm whether it's true prophecy or just historical text written after the fact. There are books today written about Jesus' death but they're not going to be put into the bible, are they?

You know, secular historians date the book of Daniel to AFTER the events of Maccabees.

Why do they do this?

For no other reason than their rejection of the idea that Daniel could give an accurate prophecy.

I’ll put my faith in the Bible, not in secularists who so often get it wrong.

 

[Andrew]

You know, secular historians date the book of Daniel to AFTER the events of Maccabees.

Why do they do this?

For no other reason than their rejection of the idea that Daniel could give an accurate prophecy.

I’ll put my faith in the Bible, not in secularists who so often get it wrong.

Exactly!
They do not find it logical for records that foretell accurate future events having been written prior to the event so they will date the prophetic text to after the time the events took place.

Note this video at 51:10 minutes in..
They guy says "long story short Daniel was written in the 2nd century BC and used older 4th 5th 6th century text to make up the first 6 chapters"