In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior?

[NathanH83]

A certain protestant reformer has said worse things than Rufinus about the Jews, in Revelation the Jews are given a new title "Synagogue of Satan" and that's the last mention of the word 'Jew' in Revelation.
Jesus called the unbelieving Jews "sons of their father the devil"

I wish no ill towards them, they are given a stumbling block set before them by the tradition of their fathers who rejected Christ.
Their Talmud is is their new testament, I cant even post the things it says concerning Mary and Jesus and gentiles.

Who is that Protestant Reformer who said bad things about the Jews?
Could that be…Martin?

 

[pinacled]

Ole sh'aul is a citizen of the Kingdom above roman authority.

His subordination to rome is a lesson in humility

Judith killed the enemy general.
You can’t think of any Biblical story where the hero killed an enemy?

Wasn’t there that one guy who killed a giant? David, was it? Kinda popular story in the Bible.

Judith was a deceitful murderer in stark contrast to david who faced the enemy with countless witnesses.

 

[Lamb]

Who is that Protestant Reformer who said bad things about the Jews?
Could that be…Martin?

Do you know why Martin Luther said what he did? Because the Jews in his time were calling our Lord and Savior a bastard.

 

[NathanH83]

Judith was a deceitful murderer in contrast to david who faced the enemy with countless witnesses.

She saved her people!!!!

Holofernes cut off their water supply. They would have died of dehydration if it wasn’t for her!

 

[NathanH83]

Do you know why Martin Luther said what he did? Because the Jews in his time were calling our Lord and Savior a bastard.

I haven’t read “On the Jews and their Lies.”

 

[Josiah]

I think he might

... that DOES seem to be the bottom line of all your threads and posts. But usually you state such as a dogmatic fact that all must docilicly accept even though you offer no substantiation whatsoever.


And what you personally might think here again offers nothing to prove that some books ('them' books) you won't identify were officially/formally declared to be inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God by The Ruling Body of all Judaism and therefore must be accepted as such by Christians and all publishing houses must be required by law to include "them" in every tome with "BIBLE" written on the cover.

And what you might personally think does not mean that all the 'them" books point to Jesus and therefore must be full, equal canonical Scripture and mandated to be all in tomes with "BIBLE" written on the cover (but not other books that point to Jesus).

And what you might personally think does not prove your Jewish Conspiracy Theory that "them" Jews (you can't identify even one of "them") ripped out "them" books (which you won't identify) from the collection of books that The Ruling Body of all Judaism declared to be Scripture BECAUSE Christians were quoting from the books (but oddly not Isaiah and other books Christians quoted from far more than Psalm 151, etc.).

I haven’t read “On the Jews and their Lies.”

That Luther decried anyone all who denounced Jesus as the Savior does NOTHING to prove that THEREFORE there were Jews (but you can't name even one) who ripped out a bunch of books (that you won't name) BECAUSE "them" books were quoted by Christians (but they forgot to rip out Isaiah and Psalms and others)... nor does it prove that "them" books all clearly pointed to Jesus.

Luther and the Jews

. One of the almost constant points made about Luther (even in some public school textbooks) is that Luther was a rapid Anti-Semitic. Many a post at Catholic sites makes this point, but it's very common everywhere since World War II. Is this historical? The following, from the website of James...

www.christianityhaven.com

.

 

[pinacled]

She saved her people!!!!

Holofernes cut off their water supply. They would have died of dehydration if it wasn’t for her!

She had nothing to do with "her people"

Judith is an example of desire for death.
A lilith with no concern for a man as her head .
Seeking judgement without authority is an eschewed form of thought.

Noblility is a direction that judith ignored and turned away from.

 

[NathanH83]

She had nothing to do with "her people"

Judith is an example of desire for death.
A lilith with no concern for a man as her head .
Seeking judgement without authority is an eschewed form of thought.

Noblility is a direction that judith ignored and turned away from.

You’re reading the story wrong, that is, IF you’ve even read it at all.

 

[NathanH83]

... that DOES seem to be the bottom line of all your threads and posts. But usually you state such as a dogmatic fact that all must docilicly accept even though you offer no substantiation whatsoever.


And what you personally might think here again offers nothing to prove that some books ('them' books) you won't identify were officially/formally declared to be inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God by The Ruling Body of all Judaism and therefore must be accepted as such by Christians and all publishing houses must be required by law to include "them" in every tome with "BIBLE" written on the cover.

And what you might personally think does not mean that all the 'them" books point to Jesus and therefore must be full, equal canonical Scripture and mandated to be all in tomes with "BIBLE" written on the cover (but not other books that point to Jesus).

And what you might personally think does not prove your Jewish Conspiracy Theory that "them" Jews (you can't identify even one of "them") ripped out "them" books (which you won't identify) from the collection of books that The Ruling Body of all Judaism declared to be Scripture BECAUSE Christians were quoting from the books (but oddly not Isaiah and other books Christians quoted from far more than Psalm 151, etc.).









That Luther decried anyone all who denounced Jesus as the Savior does NOTHING to prove that THEREFORE there were Jews (but you can't name even one) who ripped out a bunch of books (that you won't name) BECAUSE "them" books were quoted by Christians (but they forgot to rip out Isaiah and Psalms and others)... nor does it prove that "them" books all clearly pointed to Jesus.

Luther and the Jews

. One of the almost constant points made about Luther (even in some public school textbooks) is that Luther was a rapid Anti-Semitic. Many a post at Catholic sites makes this point, but it's very common everywhere since World War II. Is this historical? The following, from the website of James...

www.christianityhaven.com

.

Can you stop it with the mean-spirited attacks? All you’re doing is inciting hatred in people against you.

 

[Andrew]

@Josiah
Isaiah didn't have to be ripped out, nor psalms, because they altered the prophecy and obscured it, not for us, the NT quotes are correct, but to the Jews and according the masoretic alone it does not hint the crucification or to a virgin birth.

If you dont believe me then find the prophetic verses in the masoretic that the NT is quoting, see if they are the same

 

[NathanH83]

@Josiah
Isaiah didn't have to be ripped out, nor psalms, because they altered the prophecy and obscured it, not for us, the NT quotes are correct, but to the Jews and according the masoretic alone it does not hint the crucification or to a virgin birth.

If you dont believe me then find the prophetic verses in the masoretic that the NT is quoting, see if they are the same

Exactly. The sections in Isaiah and Psalms that clearly point to Jesus have been ripped out and replaced. That’s the point. The Septuagint reflects the original Hebrew before it was tampered with by the unbelieving Jews.

 

[NathanH83]

Do you know why Martin Luther said what he did? Because the Jews in his time were calling our Lord and Savior a bastard.

I’m not surprised they would verbally attack Jesus by calling him a bastard.

Think about this:

Jesus is the Word of God.

The unbelieving Jews have no problem attacking, crucifying, and insulting the living, breathing Word of God.

Do you think they have any true respect for the Hebrew Word of God? The actual physical text?

The early church accused the Jews of tampering with the Hebrew, and believed that the Greek Septuagint better reflected the original Hebrew.

 

[Andrew]

I’m not surprised they would verbally attack Jesus by calling him a bastard.

Think about this:

Jesus is the Word of God.

The unbelieving Jews have no problem attacking, crucifying, and insulting the living, breathing Word of God.

Do you think they have any true respect for the Hebrew Word of God? The actual physical text?

The early church accused the Jews of tampering with the Hebrew, and believed that the Greek Septuagint better reflected the original Hebrew.

Its also in their talmud, to sum up, Jesus is the son of Pantera a roman soldier and Mary was a whore, Yeshua Ben Pantera (Jesus) the bastard son of Mary was rejected priesthood by his Rabbis for being a womanizer. Jesus then created an idol cult of himself and started a false messianic sect and for that he was tortured and killed. Jesus is now in hell burning in excrement where he pleads and ministers that the Jews are the righteous of God and blessed are the Jews

Its disgusting!!!!!!!

Rabbis try to say now that it wasnt about the Jesus of the Christians for many Jews had the name Joshua/Yeshua, yeah lets take their word for it

 

[Lamb]

I’m not surprised they would verbally attack Jesus by calling him a bastard.

Think about this:

Jesus is the Word of God.

The unbelieving Jews have no problem attacking, crucifying, and insulting the living, breathing Word of God.

Do you think they have any true respect for the Hebrew Word of God? The actual physical text?

The early church accused the Jews of tampering with the Hebrew, and believed that the Greek Septuagint better reflected the original Hebrew.

Which is why Luther was not against Jews as a race but the religion that turned away from God.

 

[NathanH83]

Which is why Luther was not against Jews as a race but the religion that turned away from God.

I can understand that. Nazis believed that their biological race was “less than human.” It was based on evolution. Luther didn’t believe that. He was opposed to the religion which rejects Christ. He wasn’t opposed to anyone’s biological race.

However, I completely disagree with burning down their synagogues. God is the one to judge. Jesus said that if they refuse to listen, then leave, and shake the dust off your feet. He didn’t say burn down their synagogues. That is not God’s will for us.

Although I’m sure that God allowed the temple to be destroyed, and God allowed Nazis to burn synagogues-but again, God is judge. God used wicked kings like Nebuchadnezzar and Shalmaneser to punish the Jews. God used wicked rulers like Caesar to destroy the temple. God is the one in control, and He gets to decide who is punished and how.

But far be it from us, Christians, to be like the wicked ruler that punishes them.

God used Babylon to punish the Jews. But then he punished Babylon.

We don’t want to be the ones that are used for that purpose. That’s in God’s hands. We want to be noble vessels used for noble purposes, not ignoble vessels used for ignoble purposes. When Luther condoned burning synagogues, that was NOT in line with Christian teachings in the New Testament.

 

[Josiah]

Exactly. The sections in Isaiah and Psalms that clearly point to Jesus have been ripped out and replaced. That’s the point.

Absurd.

Your Jewish Conspiracy Theory is that The Ruling Body of All Judaism officially/formally put IN the Bible a whole bunch of "them" books (you won't identify which books "THEM" are) but some Jews (you can't identify even one) ripped out the "them" books because Christians were quoting them to support their faith in Jesus. Okay, so far we just have an entirely unsubstantiated and vague claim (all involving "them" and "they"). Like most of your claims.

But here's where your conspiracy theory gets absurd: Why is Isaiah still IN their Bible? No OT book is quoted more by Christians to support Christ than that one. And last time I checked, no Jew ripped out that book (or even a single chapter from it). Perhaps "they" ripped out Psalm 151 (because it's no longer used by Jews) and 1 Estras and the Prayer of Manassah = all no longer used by Jews, but these were not quoted by Christians to support Jesus (at least to my knowledge). Now, IF you could quote 4 or 5 Christians directly/verbatim quoting from Psalm 151 to support that Jesus is the Savior..... and could quote 4 o 5 Jews insisting Psalm 151 must be ripped out because Christians are using Psalm 151 to support their faith in Jesus, then maybe your theory might have some credence. But it seems just laughably absurd..... the very books STILL in the Jewish Bible are full of things Christians use to support our faith. Sorry, but I've read Psalm 151... your theory about why it was ripped out by "them" just makes no sense at all.



For your weird theory to have ANY consideration, please...

1. State for us (specifically, by name) what books The Ruling Body of All Judaism offically put IN their Bible (date and place of this definitive, binding meeting please).

2. List for us the names of at least 5 Jews who denounced that Decision and Ruling Body of All Judaism by demanding that some of those books be ripped out.

3. List for us, by name, the books these named Jewish leaders ripped out of the Approved Collection of all Judaism.

4, Quote at least 5 of them insisting the REASON for this demand and repudiation of the Decision of the Ruling Body is that Christians were quoting from all of those books to support their faith in Jesus as the Savior - and only those books - thus the Decision must be rejected and those books ripped out.

Then, please tell us why these Jews didn't demand that Isaiah also be ripped out from the Approved Collection of the authoritative Ruling Body.,, since no book in that collection is more quoted by Christians.





.

 

[Andrew]

Absurd.

Your Jewish Conspiracy Theory is that The Ruling Body of All Judaism officially/formally put IN the Bible a whole bunch of "them" books (you won't identify which books "THEM" are) but some Jews (you can't identify even one) ripped out the "them" books because Christians were quoting them to support their faith in Jesus. Okay, so far we just have an entirely unsubstantiated and vague claim (all involving "them" and "they"). Like most of your claims.

But here's where your conspiracy theory gets absurd: Why is Isaiah still IN their Bible? No OT book is quoted more by Christians to support Christ than that one. And last time I checked, no Jew ripped out that book (or even a single chapter from it). Perhaps "they" ripped out Psalm 151 (because it's no longer used by Jews) and 1 Estras and the Prayer of Manassah = all no longer used by Jews, but these were not quoted by Christians to support Jesus (at least to my knowledge). Now, IF you could quote 4 or 5 Christians directly/verbatim quoting from Psalm 151 to support that Jesus is the Savior..... and could quote 4 o 5 Jews insisting Psalm 151 must be ripped out because Christians are using Psalm 151 to support their faith in Jesus, then maybe your theory might have some credence. But it seems just laughably absurd..... the very books STILL in the Jewish Bible are full of things Christians use to support our faith. Sorry, but I've read Psalm 151... your theory about why it was ripped out by "them" just makes no sense at all.



For your weird theory to have ANY consideration, please...

1. State for us (specifically, by name) what books The Ruling Body of All Judaism offically put IN their Bible (date and place of this definitive, binding meeting please).

2. List for us the names of at least 5 Jews who denounced that Decision and Ruling Body of All Judaism by demanding that some of those books be ripped out.

3. List for us, by name, the books these named Jewish leaders ripped out of the Approved Collection of all Judaism.

4, Quote at least 5 of them insisting the REASON for this demand and repudiation of the Decision of the Ruling Body is that Christians were quoting from all of those books to support their faith in Jesus as the Savior - and only those books - thus the Decision must be rejected and those books ripped out.

Then, please tell us why these Jews didn't demand that Isaiah also be ripped out from the Approved Collection of the authoritative Ruling Body.,, since no book in that collection is more quoted by Christians.





.

Rabbi Bar Anina of Tiberias was Jerome's instructor just as Rabbi Akiva was to the Christian apostate Aquila. Aquila who preceded Jerome in likewise manner, had replaced the former Greek translations used in synagogues with his new (and crude compared to the 70) Greek translation that included alterations based primarily on a 'proto-masoretic' Hebrew, Jerome's vulgate became weighed even more heavily into masoretic influence and like Aquila he eventually replaced the LXX in the Church with his new and less accurate translation.

There are only a small number of fragments from what was transcribed of the early dialogues between Christians and Jews that preceded Justin and Trypho.

That dialogue still exists, I recommend starting here

Justin the martyr: "But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy [king] of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but I proceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive,' and say it ought to be read, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof"

Trypho: "We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled."

CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 69-88 (Justin Martyr)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

This page starts at chapter 69 where Justin is refuting the claims that Christianity is based on pagan greek mythos, skip to chapter 71 where he defends the LXX

 

[Josiah]

Rabbi Bar Anina of Tiberias was Jerome's instructor just as Rabbi Akiva was to the Christian apostate Aquila. Aquila who preceded Jerome in likewise manner, had replaced the former Greek translations used in synagogues with his new (and crude compared to the 70) Greek translation that included alterations based primarily on a 'proto-masoretic' Hebrew, Jerome's vulgate became weighed even more heavily into masoretic influence and like Aquila he eventually replaced the LXX in the Church with his new and less accurate translation.

There are only a small number of fragments from what was transcribed of the early dialogues between Christians and Jews that preceded Justin and Trypho.

That dialogue still exists, I recommend starting here

Justin the martyr: "But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy [king] of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but I proceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive,' and say it ought to be read, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof"

Trypho: "We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled."

This page starts at chapter 69 where Justin is refuting the claims that Christianity is based on pagan greek mythos, skip to chapter 71 where he defends the LXX

ANDREW


Thank you.

But NOTHING you posted remotely even suggests Nathan's Jewish Conspiracy Theory, NOTHING that supports that The Ruling Body of all Judaism officially/formally declared his "them" books to be The inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscriptured Scriptures....

And NOTHING you posted remotely indicates that specific Jewish persons repudiated that Ruling Body and that authoritative declaration by demanding that Nathan's "them" books be ripped out....

And NOTHING you posted remotely substantiates that the stated reason of these unidentified Jews for insisting The Ruling Body of Judaism be repudiated and Nathan's "them" books be ripped out is BECAUSE certain named Christians were quoting from "them" to support that Jesus is the Savior (but didn't know that Christians also were quoting from Isaiah and several other books Christians were quoting, they didn't know that)...

And of course NOTHING to support that his "them" books were officially/formally declared by The Ruling Body of All Christianity to be The inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God (and so all Bibles were identical until Luther came along) but Luther refused to include "them" in his German translation and thus Christians are unaware of "them" and forbidden to read them....

In other words, NOTHING to support his rants about "them" books he calls "Apocrypha" ("unauthorized" "unauthoritative") His rant in thread after thread, post after post, since coming here over a year ago.





.

 

[FredVB]

You can’t think of any Biblical story where the hero killed an enemy?

There was. Jael, Heber's wife, who struck a tent peg through the head of Sisera the enemy of the people of Israel as he lay in her tent, away from any witnesses too. Judges 4:21.

Indeed, I don't think God in perfection of God would condone lying. God can work to keep things unknown. Most things of reality remain mysteries we will never know.

 

[Pedrito]

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In Post #262, Pinacled said: “Judith was a deceitful murderer in stark contrast to david who faced the enemy with countless witnesses.”

And in Post #267: “Noblility is a direction that judith ignored and turned away from.”

He’s totally correct.

Obviously, Judith should have found some armour to don, then challenged that trained warrior Holofernes to a “fair fight”.

Shame! Shame!

===================================================================================