Mary’s Perpetual Virginity

[Tigger]

I’m a very traditional non-RC/EO Christian and I non-dogmatically hold to the perpetual virginity of Mary the mother of Jesus. I believe that as a human it’s impossible to read, understand and comprehend anything without having a paradigm in which to process information. With that said I typically go with a traditional paradigm to fill in the back story of biblical teachings. The attached video is a great example of the lens in which I view biblically historic Christianity.

 

[Albion]

In fairness, the evidence for Mary's perpetual virginity also includes the fact that she was once a virgin.

That makes no sense, my friend. EVERY person who is or became sexually active was once a virgin.

The fact that a virginal teenager, Mary, was chosen by God to give birth to the Savior in no way makes it more likely that she would, for the whole of her life thereafter, not have sexual relations with anyone is simply wishful thinking on the part of people who--particularly in an earlier time--thought that this state of life was, by definition, holy.

In addition, if we think that she was a Perpetual Virgin, we have to explain how Mary gave birth to Jesus in the normal, human, way but still remained a virgin in a physical, biological sense! That is also part of the theory, the belief, that we are dealing with under the term "Perpetual Virgin." It's a pious myth, not unlike the belief in Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven, that she was "the Immaculate Conception," and that she is the "co-redemptrix" (with Christ) of mankind..

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Actually we've both explained Luke 1:34 several times. It is present tense. Not Future tense. It is "I am a virgin and not having sex", not "I'll always be a virgin and never have sex".

Do you have a scripture that repealed Lk 1:34?

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Pulling verses out of context doesn't prove anything.

Context ain’t scripture
Biblical principals apply
Where God has entered no man may enter!

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

... and the Protestants you quoted did NOT hold to the POV as dogma. They held to it as "pious opinion" - a PERMITTED view that is NEITHER confirmed or rejected by Scripture but is supported by ancient, ecumenical Tradition. As you note, the POV is dogma in your church, thus a difference you choose to side-step.

Your claim is that SCRIPTURE "clearly teaches" that Mary died as a virgin... but... ironically... you have gone to great lengths to prove yourself wrong, to shoot yourself in the foot.



.

Dogma itself has a scriptural
Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18
Bound on earth bound in heaven


This site insists on adherence to and belief in the nicene creed and council:

What about the other councils of the church?

Such as the Council Of Ephesus – 431 A.D.

If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh) let him be anathema.

And

Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (apostolic Council of the Lateran, 649)

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

...and you have not explained how you know that there was "no sex" in Mary's case.

So, as usual, your evidence for her alleged Perpetual Virginity is "We would like it to be so."

Truths are revealed by God and proposed for our belief by holy mother church!

the evidence is the authority of Christ
The teaching authority of the apostles Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18 bound on earth bound in heaven

since you reject all the other scriptures I quoted

This site insists on adherence to and belief in the nicene creed and council:

What about the other councils of the church?

Such as the Council Of Ephesus – 431 A.D.

If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh) let him be anathema.

And

Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (apostolic Council of the Lateran, 649) with the jurisdictional authority of Peter and the apostles in holy council! Matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21-23 eph 2:20 bound on earth bound in heaven!

And

The two councils of all Trent and the 1st Vatican council???

 

[Albion]

Truths are revealed by God and proposed for our belief by holy mother church!

As said before, you are entitled to preach to us instead of discussing the topic here. However, we know what the myths promoted by your denomination ARE, including the part about it being incapable of error, so if that's all you have to fall back on at this stage in the debate, it looks like we're done.

 

[Josiah]

Do you have a scripture that repealed Lk 1:34?

You've already proven that Luke 1:34 does not state that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

You've gone to some lengths to undeniably prove that your claim that Scripture "clearly states" this is.... well.... false. Your church clearly states it but as you've so powerfully proven, Scripture does not.

Matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21-23 eph 2:20

There's a reason you only reference these and not quote them. If you quoted them, you'd continue to prove that Scripture does not state what you do, you'd again prove your opinion is not found in Scripture.



.

 

[Josiah]

Where God has entered no man may enter!

"And the Word dwelt among us." God entered the world.... it's called the "incarnation." Do people also dwell here?



.

 

[Lanman87]

Do you have a scripture that repealed Lk 1:34?

Matthew 1:25

In this context, the word "Until" is conditional on a change in action/status/event. That is not always the case, sometimes "until" just designates a time frame. (1 Corinthians 15:25, Phil 1:10, 1 Tim 6:14). However, most of the time the word Until is predicated by a change in action/status/event. (Acts 20:11, Acts 23:12, Rev 7:3, Gen 8:7, Matt 2:9, Matt 2:15 Matt 17:9, Matt 24:38, Matt 26:29 and many many more versus).

That natural usage of Matthew 1:25 is (like most of the examples) predicated on a time frame that shows a change of action/status/event.

In this case the event was the birth of Christ.

So Matthew 1:24-25 means exactly as it reads

When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. ESV

24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus. NLT

24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25 [a]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he named Him Jesus. NASB

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. NIV

If you read that verse it is natural to understand that Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage sometime after the birth of Christ.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

As said before, you are entitled to preach to us instead of discussing the topic here. However, we know what the myths promoted by your denomination ARE, including the part about it being incapable of error, so if that's all you have to fall back on at this stage in the debate, it looks like we're done.

Just going with scripture
Jn 16:13 Jn 8:32
And I don’t have a denomination or a church only Christ does

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

You've already proven that Luke 1:34 does not state that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

You've gone to some lengths to undeniably prove that your claim that Scripture "clearly states" this is.... well.... false. Your church clearly states it but as you've so powerfully proven, Scripture does not.







There's a reason you only reference these and not quote them. If you quoted them, you'd continue to prove that Scripture does not state what you do, you'd again prove your opinion is not found in Scripture.



.

The councils of the church are bound by apostolic authority from Jesus christ

notice how the successors of Moses are to be obeyed by Christ command!

the authority and power they exercised was taken from them and given to Peter and the apostles and their successors and Christ still commands obedience!
Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus Christ is king!

We must submit and obey the king of kings!

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

And In the absence of the king we must submit and obey the kings ministers!

Isa 22:21-22
Matt 16:18
Matt 18:18
Matt 28:18
Lk 10:16
Jn 13:20
Jn 20:21-23

Example of Joseph under pharaoh administers the kingdom and his brothers obeyed and submitted to him. Gen 37

Gen 37:7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Obedience to Joseph is obedience to pharaoh!

Obedience to Peter and the Apostles is obedience to Christ!

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

"And the Word dwelt among us." God entered the world.... it's called the "incarnation." Do people also dwell here?



.

Irrelevant man was already here

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Matthew 1:25

In this context, the word "Until" is conditional on a change in action/status/event. That is not always the case, sometimes "until" just designates a time frame. (1 Corinthians 15:25, Phil 1:10, 1 Tim 6:14). However, most of the time the word Until is predicated by a change in action/status/event. (Acts 20:11, Acts 23:12, Rev 7:3, Gen 8:7, Matt 2:9, Matt 2:15 Matt 17:9, Matt 24:38, Matt 26:29 and many many more versus).

That natural usage of Matthew 1:25 is (like most of the examples) predicated on a time frame that shows a change of action/status/event.

In this case the event was the birth of Christ.

So Matthew 1:24-25 means exactly as it reads

When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. ESV

24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus. NLT

24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25 [a]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he named Him Jesus. NASB

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. NIV

If you read that verse it is natural to understand that Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage sometime after the birth of Christ.

Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.

Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!

 

[Lanman87]

Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.

Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!

As I said, sometimes "until" designates a time frame and gave my own examples similar to 2 Sam 6:23. However, anytime it is used that way, you know it being used that way. It is not ambiguous. And it is the natural understanding.

The natural usage in Matthew 1:25 is the same as Acts 20:11

11 And when Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten, he conversed with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed.

and Matthew 24:38

38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,

and dozens of other places in Scripture.

If you and I are having a conversation and I say, "I'm not going to the grocery store until it stops raining". Your understanding is that I'm waiting for it to stop raining before leaving for the grocery store. That is the same usage as Matthew 1:25. The understanding is that Joseph waited until after the birth of Christ to consummate the marriage.

Saying that "until" doesn't really mean "until" and that "brothers and sisters" doesn't really mean "brothers and sisters" is just grasping at straws to try and shoehorn Tradition into Scripture.

 

[tango]

That makes no sense, my friend. EVERY person who is or became sexually active was once a virgin.

I guess sarcasm doesn't always work on the internet...

 

[tango]

Context ain’t scripture
Biblical principals apply
Where God has entered no man may enter!

So you keep saying. Sadly you have yet to provide anything that indicates that a woman who started life as a virgin (like every single other human who has ever lived) automatically retained her virginity for the entirety of her life.

You could always be reckless and, you know, provide a verse that says Mary was always a virgin even after Jesus was born. The fact you haven't done so despite quoting all sorts of irrelevant Scriptures taken out of context says quite a lot.

 

[NathanH83]

I wasn’t sure if I should put this topic here or in Denominations but anyway, as most of you know I used be Catholic and again, most of you know, the Catholic Church holds to the belief Mary was a perpetual virgin having no other children after Jesus. My LCMS church says she had other kids, saying her perpetual virginity is not Biblical.
I was reading about this on Got Questions? and they raise good points that Mary had other kids but then I read another site, a Catholic site, which states that everyone, including Protestants believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity until much later.
Both sides have good arguments for their position so how can we find out the truth?

The only thing that matters is that Mary was a virgin at the time Jesus was born. If it was so important to know that Mary stayed a virgin the rest of her life, then either the New Testament would have said so, or some Apostolic father who knew the disciples would have mentioned it.

But they never talked about it, because it’s not an essential Christian doctrine to know that Mary stated a virgin the rest of her life. ONLY that she was a virgin at the time Jesus was born.

Granted, the New Testament does give off the impression that Mary slept with Joseph after Jesus was born and had other children. It does seem to say that. And Catholics have their tortured logic, taking the text totally out if context, in order to force fit it to seem like Mary stayed a virgin.

But again, why is it important? It isn’t. Why do Catholics go through so many mental gymnastics, and twist the scriptures into pretzels in order to make Mary seem to have stayed a virgin?

The disciples never bothered to stress this point. The first and second generation of Christians after the disciples never bothered to stress this point. So why do Catholics insist on stressing such an irrelevant point?

The only thing that is CENTRAL to the Christian faith is that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. Whether she stayed a virgin or not is a SIDE ISSUE, and Paul warned not to get into useless arguments about doubtful things. He said to give no heed to them.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

As I said, sometimes "until" designates a time frame and gave my own examples similar to 2 Sam 6:23. However, anytime it is used that way, you know it being used that way. It is not ambiguous. And it is the natural understanding.

The natural usage in Matthew 1:25 is the same as Acts 20:11

11 And when Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten, he conversed with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed.

and Matthew 24:38

38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,

and dozens of other places in Scripture.

If you and I are having a conversation and I say, "I'm not going to the grocery store until it stops raining". Your understanding is that I'm waiting for it to stop raining before leaving for the grocery store. That is the same usage as Matthew 1:25. The understanding is that Joseph waited until after the birth of Christ to consummate the marriage.

Saying that "until" doesn't really mean "until" and that "brothers and sisters" doesn't really mean "brothers and sisters" is just grasping at straws to try and shoehorn Tradition into Scripture.

The twelve sons of Jacob are all true brothers but they had four different mothers
So these may be the brothers of Christ but that does not make them the children of mary
Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).


Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.

Only God can be born of a Virgin-mother!

Not trying to shoehorn it is scripture!
With the authority of Christ Matt 16:18 & 18:18 bound on earth bound in heaven and by a council too

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

So you keep saying. Sadly you have yet to provide anything that indicates that a woman who started life as a virgin (like every single other human who has ever lived) automatically retained her virginity for the entirety of her life.

You could always be reckless and, you know, provide a verse that says Mary was always a virgin even after Jesus was born. The fact you haven't done so despite quoting all sorts of irrelevant Scriptures taken out of context says quite a lot.

Differences in Lk 1

Lk 1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Mary is the Queen of the Angels!

The angel is greeting his sovereign mistress and no introduction is needed with Mary, like verse 19 cos Mary knows Gabriel, Mary from the first moment of her creation by God is immaculate! (And sees the beatific vision of God always before her eyes, even in her mothers womb, my opinion) so she knows Gabriel who stands on the presence of God!

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Has the use of reason even in her mothers womb, Mary at age three was consecrated to God in the temple and made a VOW of perpetual virginity to God, practicing faith, hope, and charity! Lk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord!
A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

A sinner would be an evil tree with evil fruit, but the fruit of Mary is salvation!

Mary brings in the good fruits of our redemption and salvation!

Only a queen can bear a king!